Cast into the fire.

[gordon 2]

John 15 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

" and men gather them*, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." *
them meaning? Them* meaning men who are as withered branches cast forth?

This --gathering by men-withered and cast off branches- and their burning --( my word arrangement)" is this just a figure of speech statement or something else? Or put it this way: Do spiritually withered men gather themselves to their own destruction (burn) if they do not abide in God? Is this a simple type expression of the fall at least?

Is this what the statement means? Or is it just an expression that at the last Judgement those who had not been in Christ will be burned?

Hope you get my drift. Any ideas? Figure of speech or is this actually saying that men who do not abide gather themselves into a fire and so are burned?

 

[hobbs27]

This is in John.

I think Judas is a great example of Jesus' warning here.

 

[gordon 2]

This is in John.

I think Judas is a great example of Jesus' warning here.

???? Say that again about judas and the warning? I don't get it right now.


Yes and thanks for the heads up it is in John.... which I knew...but had Matt. in mind also.

 

[hobbs27]

Judas stopped abiding in Christ. He was cut off and withered. The knowledge of this must have burned, causing great anguish, so much so he took his own life.

Imagine having been told this directly from the mouth of Jesus and experiencing it first hand.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Judas stopped abiding in Christ. He was cut off and withered. The knowledge of this must have burned, causing great anguish, so much so he took his own life.

Imagine having been told this directly from the mouth of Jesus and experiencing it first hand.

Did Judas stop abiding or perhaps he never abode?

John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[gordon 2]

Ok on Judas, but what does this mean?

"...and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned...

 

[hobbs27]

Ok on Judas, but what does this mean?

"...and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned...

I have a clue... Was hoping someone else would answer, but what do you think the burning of the withered branches of the natural vine represents? A purifying of God's people perhaps... People from the natural vine?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I have a clue... Was hoping someone else would answer, but what do you think the burning of the withered branches of the natural vine represents? A purifying of God's people perhaps... People from the natural vine?

I considered that but wonder if that is what the John passage is about.
Anyway here is something from Ezekiel 15;

Burning a Useless Vine

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, of all the woody branches among the trees of the forest, what happens to the wood of the vine? 3 Can wood be taken from it to make anything useful? Or can anyone make a peg from it to hang things on? 4 No! It is thrown in the fire for fuel; when the fire has burned up both ends of it and it is charred in the middle, will it be useful for anything? 5 Indeed! If it was not made into anything useful when it was whole, how much less can it be made into anything when the fire has burned it up and it is charred?

6 “Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Like the wood of the vine is among the trees of the forest which I have provided as fuel for the fire—so I will provide the residents of Jerusalem as fuel. 7 I will set my face against them—although they have escaped from the fire, the fire will still consume them! Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I set my face against them. 8 I will make the land desolate because they have acted unfaithfully, declares the sovereign Lord.”

In this the fire consumes. Perhaps fires always consume.

 

[gordon 2]

I have a clue... Was hoping someone else would answer, but what do you think the burning of the withered branches of the natural vine represents? A purifying of God's people perhaps... People from the natural vine?

Hum. I don't know about God's people being purified, but it might mean that generally that withered or weak believer or non-abiding individuals are easily influenced by non-abiding individuals to be peer pressured into all kinds of foolishness in deed and belief.

 

[gordon 2]

I considered that but wonder if that is what the John passage is about.
Anyway here is something from Ezekiel 15;

Burning a Useless Vine

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, of all the woody branches among the trees of the forest, what happens to the wood of the vine? 3 Can wood be taken from it to make anything useful? Or can anyone make a peg from it to hang things on? 4 No! It is thrown in the fire for fuel; when the fire has burned up both ends of it and it is charred in the middle, will it be useful for anything? 5 Indeed! If it was not made into anything useful when it was whole, how much less can it be made into anything when the fire has burned it up and it is charred?

6 “Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Like the wood of the vine is among the trees of the forest which I have provided as fuel for the fire—so I will provide the residents of Jerusalem as fuel. 7 I will set my face against them—although they have escaped from the fire, the fire will still consume them! Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I set my face against them. 8 I will make the land desolate because they have acted unfaithfully, declares the sovereign Lord.”

In this the fire consumes. Perhaps fires always consume.

This is very revealing! Thanks Art. I have friends who have a vineyard in Italy. They are fond of saying grape vines are from the get go --weeds! They will choke out a field ( spoil it) and both become unproductive with time if left un-pruned or un-checked. Not only this, but also the harvest becomes poor if not impossible and the wine quality... it goes without saying.

So I have to consider if this is not a simile of the fall ( the world) in general and those who abide select branches on the vine...? John 1:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

So would you come to the conclusion that to casting to the fire is simply what man does to himself when he is not in a state of abiding with God... It is a natural event just as vines left to themselves are tinder for an eventual lighting strike and or as sawdust does self ignite and then burn down the mill.???

 

[Artfuldodger]

So would you come to the conclusion that to casting to the fire is simply what man does to himself when he is not in a state of abiding with God... It is a natural event just as vines left to themselves are tinder for an eventual lighting strike and or as sawdust does self ignite and then burn down the mill.???

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

As you asked earlier pertaining to "Men" gathering them", I do not know. Good question, it doesn't sound like it is talking about oneself casting himself into the fire.
It sounds like other men. Perhaps just an analogy, "as a branch is cast into the fire by man."
If one doesn't abide in the Lord, he will be cast in the fire "as" man has did to the vine trimmings.

If it is the Church men doing this it goes against the parable of the wheat and tares. This is one of those topics that shows up pretty regular on the forum. If man should cast the branches. I think that is up to God. He says leave them for him to cast so I don't believe this is what John is saying when he says "man cast the branches in the fire."

Verse 6 is still confusing in my mind. It does say "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch" and the men gather them for the fire. I think it just means "as" a branch.

 

[hobbs27]

Hum. I don't know about God's people being purified, but it might mean that generally that withered or weak believer or non-abiding individuals are easily influenced by non-abiding individuals to be peer pressured into all kinds of foolishness in deed and belief.

It's the same simile as the wheat and tares.

If you want to see it in history... Look at the first temple destruction when God sent in men to kill off those that were not abiding in him, but saved a remnant. That's what I meant by a purifying... Also look at Sodom and Gomorah.. A remnant saved ...or the great flood, when God once again purified his people and saved a remnant.

 

[NCHillbilly]

This is very revealing! Thanks Art. I have friends who have a vineyard in Italy. They are fond of saying grape vines are from the get go --weeds! They will choke out a field ( spoil it) and both become unproductive with time if left un-pruned or un-checked. Not only this, but also the harvest becomes poor if not impossible and the wine quality... it goes without saying.

So I have to consider if this is not a simile of the fall ( the world) in general and those who abide select branches on the vine...? John 1:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

So would you come to the conclusion that to casting to the fire is simply what man does to himself when he is not in a state of abiding with God... It is a natural event just as vines left to themselves are tinder for an eventual lighting strike and or as sawdust does self ignite and then burn down the mill.???

I think the Bible is pretty clear that one of the core tenets of Christianity is that if you don't obey God, he will literally light you on fire.

 

[gordon 2]

I think the Bible is pretty clear that one of the core tenets of Christianity is that if you don't obey God, he will literally light you on fire.[/QUOte

Well it is not pretty nor clear to me the more I research this so called core tenant or belief.

For example Galatians 5:15


But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


The more and more I study this it is not God doing the burning... but rather human beings do it to themselves either by not living life to the fullest of their potential or simply deceiving themselves and descending to strife and even wars ( civil and otherwise) in the names of peace, liberty and doing what is ( believed) just!

 

[gordon 2]

It's the same simile as the wheat and tares.

If you want to see it in history... Look at the first temple destruction when God sent in men to kill off those that were not abiding in him, but saved a remnant. That's what I meant by a purifying... Also look at Sodom and Gomorah.. A remnant saved ...or the great flood, when God once again purified his people and saved a remnant.

The wheat and tares is it really the same?

Rain it will fall on all until the last judgement right?

The days of remnants I don't see it applies to our times or to Christians. Christians are being separated from the world, with its powers and principalities, to their (Christian) kingdom. Within this kingdom there will not be a purification or a remnant gained by God. His kingdom cannot be divided in itself. Right?

So the wheat and tares is really not about the traditional purification of a people, it is about getting people separated from the world of the fall and born again. Right?

.....................

Galatians 5:15


But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

What does this mean to you? In who's hands is the leaven of malice?

 

[hobbs27]

I think the Bible is pretty clear that one of the core tenets of Churchianity is that if you don't obey God, he will literally light you on fire.

Fixed IMO.

 

[gordon 2]

Fixed IMO.

Yea, I agree. And sometimes ( though rarely) Churchianity needs its tables overturned. ( as opposed to a purification perhaps).

 

[hobbs27]

Yea, I agree. And sometimes ( though rarely) Churchianity needs its tables overturned. ( as opposed to a purification perhaps).

Sometimes yes... Perhaps even from the second century onward.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I think the Bible is pretty clear that one of the core tenets of Christianity is that if you don't obey God, he will literally light you on fire.[/QUOte

Well it is not pretty nor clear to me the more I research this so called core tenant or belief.

For example Galatians 5:15


But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


The more and more I study this it is not God doing the burning... but rather human beings do it to themselves either by not living life to the fullest of their potential or simply deceiving themselves and descending to strife and even wars ( civil and otherwise) in the names of peace, liberty and doing what is ( believed) just!

If you believe the words of Jesus, this is what he said:

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.

45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored,
48 where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.... 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.



Seems pretty plain to me, in His own words.

 

[gordon 2]

If you believe the words of Jesus, this is what he said:







4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.... 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.



Seems pretty plain to me, in His own words.

Yep. I understand where your coming from.

However... fire can turn to darkness maybe if you care to read on past verse nine.


2 Peter 2:9-17 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb CensoredCensoredCensored speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
----------------------

So how's bout the fire burns now...to the point that there's not more to burn..and... I cannot be sure that the days of judgement are not our days?