cmshoot
Senior Member
Here's the review I mentioned above:
WCG, Inc. & G2 Research, Inc. R.I.P 9mm Ammo Test Benchmark and Initial Test #1
February 4, 2014 at 9:06am
Initial Testing Protocol:
We all get too emotional with the comparing caliber to caliber or weapon to weapon for the very reason of human nature as we think our weapon is better than yours, or your choice is better than mine etc.... that attitude and that stance is just human nature. Always going to happen.
The 1911, .45 ACP guys & girls (Rissa), will argue that the .45 ACP in 1911 may only have a 7+1, 8+1 or 10+1 capacity but argue that it is the .45 ACP so the bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel. Merit and truth is there of course. I am a big fan of "no replacement for displacement".
You are never going to be under-gunned with a .45 ACP
Now, the argument of round count then comes into play of course and the 9mm guys & girls (not you Rissa, I know you hate the 9mm), but the fact is you will argue that your massive round count of 16+1, 17+1 or greater gives you a tactical advantage in raw round-count firepower... and there would be merit to that argument also but again all depending on the situation you happen to find yourself in.
In the setup of a testing protocol for the 9mm R.I.P. ammo the first thing that I do is look at the bragging points of the manufacturer and validate against their "claims". Typically, that is a clue or insight into whether or not there is more marketing "HYPE" vs. substance, and quickly separates the men from the boys quickly or the true engineers vs. those that simply spread hype in pursuit of sales...
G2's Claims:
9mm R.I.P. velocity = 1,265 fps = 490 ft-lbs energy (these claims seem to have been revised down to 358 ft-lbs)
Reality: 9mm R.I.P as tested in 6" ported / extended 9mm Glock = 1,305 fps that translates to about 363 ft-lbs)
Ok, so just in this initial observation I would say their claims while on par they do not state their test weapon or barrel length, so the claims of velocity and energy are still within specification and we found them a little better but the kinetic energy calculations are evident that energy is on the light side comparative to other bullets.
Cases in point: (My test benchmarks to be used as comparison to the G2 RIP)
1) 9mm +p 135 Grain Flexlock Critical Duty Hornady, Velocity = 1,110 fps - Energy = 369 (Hornady website)
FACT: http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-LUGER-P-135-gr-FlexLock-Critical-DUTY/
2) 9mm +p 135 Grain Flexlock Critical Duty Hornady, Velocity = 1,195 fps - Energy = 428 (my hand loads)
So with that as the benchmark, look at this:
1. 9mm RIP Ammo 96 Grain Bullet, Velocity =1,265 fps, Energy = 358 ft. lbs
2. 9mm +P 135 Grain FlexLock (factory ammo), Velocity =1,110 fps, Energy = 369 ft. lbs
3. 9mm 135 Grain FlexLock (WCG loaded), Velocity =1,195 fps, Energy = 428 ft. lbs
---
1. 9mm 115 Grain XTP - Velocity = 1,165 fps, Energy = 341 ft. lbs
2. 9mm 124 Grain XTP - Velocity = 1,110 fps, Energy = 339 ft. lbs
3. 9mm 147 Grain XTP - Velocity = 975 fps, Energy = 310 ft. lbs
Those are the facts people! You will not win an argument with Kinetic laws of Energy (bullet weight to velocity is a "known state" a formula dictated by the laws of physics)
Don't believe it? > http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/energy.htm?bw=147&bv=975
Simple math people. And while variations down range will change based upon BC and SD of the bullet tested those are the benchmarks in terms of speed and energy.
Now, let's talk what energy does:
Energy to bullets is like Ft. Lbs. torque when talking about vehicle engines.... in NASCAR, Horsepower (relative to FPS or speed of a bullet), does NOT win races. Horsepower has never won a NASCAR race.
Torque is relative to Energy. Torque is what wins races in NASCAR, NOT horsepower. Putting down maximum ENERGY or (Torque) to the pavement in the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time is what wins NASCAR.
Point made, not going to argue that. So, having achieved a logical win to ignorance of the relevance of velocity and energy, here are my initial impressions regarding the G2 RIP Ammo:
1. They are not Hyping velocity or energy claims and seem to have adjusted their claims. That gives them a plus in my book.
2. Lackluster energy - a reason I never liked the 9mm round however, a fact is the G2 holds it's own in terms of both velocity and energy claims against the Hornady loadings either factory or hand loaded.
I am not going to compare to other manufactures types because Hornady as to pistol rounds lead the pack and that is a fact jack, shoot what you like, the XTP round is going to pulverize the Speer Gold Dot or the Winchester loadings every time in accuracy, reliability of feed, speed and energy. Just a fact.
Now, judging from the videos from G2 Research, Inc. it appears that the energy of the round dissipates "too early" in the ballistic gelatin. My initial findings and observations not a fact!
Once the Trocar tipped fins separate, the projectile that continues on has lost a substantial amount of its weight and creates a smaller wound channel. You can see that in the videos from G2, so they are not trying to hype or deceive anyone. They are stating a fact of "purpose" or intended purpose of the round "as-tested".
Also, I see nothing about how the round will act when the Trocar fins strike bone... it seems like they wouldn't be very effective against larger boned people.
TEST #1:
However, I have done four initial tests against penetration of multiple layers of denim to effect on dry bone, and so far, for penetration I would give the G2 a rating of 6 out of 10 against the XTP in either 124 or 147 grain loadings.
Summary:
Now that a test protocol and benchmark against an industry standard has been established, we can get to documenting the facts via, further testing with pictures and some video results. We will not be doing any high-speed or slow-mo videos, just real-world results of the round compared to relative hits to intended targets.
What I did find in all initial testing however is ZERO failures to feed in even the lowest cost of weaponry and age of the weapon so I rate the feeding of the ammo as a solid 10 out of 10. 100% NO FTE's so that argument is really one nobody is going to win over me... PERIOD.
Having said that, it is important to note I had 1 FTE with a factory Hornady FlexLock! So there you go!
Perhaps if people spent more of their time practicing their shot placement instead of bickering over which caliber of round is more lethal, there wouldn't be a need for this ultra-hyper-frangible types of ammunition of which I have NEVER been a big fan of at all. Hope that gives you some insight to my further testing but I will NOT let my personal opinions affect the science behind the facts.
The point I am trying to make is that this ammunition has a BIG hurdle to overcome with me and our experiences in terms of a hyper-velocity frangible round... and as many of you know, I am a BIG pro-supporter of large caliber super ultra velocity, hyper-velocity in terms of the rifles we build > http://weatherbyman.net/
This will be an interesting test to say the least, let's not let emotions get in the middle of science or relationships between friend or foe! Let the testing begin! More to come!
Corey James
Chief Weapons Designer, WCG, Inc.
Our G2 Research, INC., Testing with downloadable links:
WCG, Inc. Phase II Testing completed. Please see some pictures of the testing.
Note: ZERO Failures to Feed, ZERO failures to extract. Flawless performance of feed and extraction and that is just a fact! The arguments of "these will fail to feed or have feed issues" is NOT a valid argument and will not hold merit with us at all. They do not fail to run in the weapons as-tested.
Performance in flight? How was it? Well under the 2" @ 20 yards and that my friends very impressive! Outstanding performance of flight characteristics of this RIP ammo (as-tested 9mm, 96.0 grain).
Penetration? Just look at the pics. Retained Fragment weight = 44.1 average, very impressive.
Speed as tested 1,290 to 1,300 FPS in a Glock22C modified with Lone Wolf 9mm barrel and 9mm magazines. Also testing was performed for feed issues with a KELTEC P-11 (at the lower-end of quality of weapons), and the performance of feed and extraction were flawless.
RESULTS:
WCG, Inc. - Phase II Testing Data
The G2 Research RIP Bullets (3), shot 2/5/2014 @ 14:15 hours. Results are shot at 15 yards - deep penetration (5 layers heavy burlap carpet (rolled making 10 layers), and a 2"x6" Pine Board (behind rolled carpet).
The baseline 9mm Hornday 124 Gr. XTP, shot #1:
124 Grain Hornady XTP at 1,210 FPS – shot though carpet lodged in pine board as a control shot.
The G2 Bullets: #2, #3 & #4 (96Gr. RIP Bullet fired at 1,304 FPS from the same weapon (Glock Model 22C/9mm Conversion) - shot rapid fire #2, #3, #4 @ 15 yards.
----
The Control (baseline):
1. The first baseline was the 124 Grain Hornady XTP 9mm bullet did NOT penetrate the 10 layers of carpet. The bullet went into the ground (could not recover after pass-through), 2nd Control XTP bullet shot passed though 10 layers, and embedded in the 2”x 6” Pine Board.
2. Shots, 2-4 were the G2 Research, Inc. 96 gr. RIP Bullets shot at same distance into 5 rolled layers of burlap carpet (equiv. to 12 layers of denim)
3. Recovered 96 Grain Fragment was weighed at 44.1 grains retained after penetration through (completely through) 2" x 6" Pine board – please note that he remaining fragment actually fused to the separated lead core from the control shot of the XTP Hornady Bullet in the pine board.
It was removed prior to validation of retained weight of the G2 Core Fragment. 4. Note the entry and exit in the pine board after passing 5 layers (in effect 10 layers) as it went in and out and into the pine board --- pictures tell the story.
-- this G2 delivers a massive “real-world” wound channel potential -- we already know what it does in ballistics gel tests but this is what it does to get there! It demonstrates excellent penetration and delivers maximum energy transfer to the intended target.
This is impressive in all a 9.5” penetration with retained bullet weight as indicated 44.1 grains, two of the remaining R.I.P. bullets did a complete pass-through and tore into the pine board. What appears to be one shot is actually two RIP bullets that shredded the pine board in and out.
SEE LINK TO PPT Below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uul8bt0erijoikz/G2 PhaseII Testing.ppt
Link to pictures of the results of G2 can be found @ this link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kholr52sj93cet1/wXphtmfedS
All results tested by: http://weatherbyman.net/
WCG, Inc. & G2 Research, Inc. R.I.P 9mm Ammo Test Benchmark and Initial Test #1
February 4, 2014 at 9:06am
Initial Testing Protocol:
We all get too emotional with the comparing caliber to caliber or weapon to weapon for the very reason of human nature as we think our weapon is better than yours, or your choice is better than mine etc.... that attitude and that stance is just human nature. Always going to happen.
The 1911, .45 ACP guys & girls (Rissa), will argue that the .45 ACP in 1911 may only have a 7+1, 8+1 or 10+1 capacity but argue that it is the .45 ACP so the bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel. Merit and truth is there of course. I am a big fan of "no replacement for displacement".
You are never going to be under-gunned with a .45 ACP
Now, the argument of round count then comes into play of course and the 9mm guys & girls (not you Rissa, I know you hate the 9mm), but the fact is you will argue that your massive round count of 16+1, 17+1 or greater gives you a tactical advantage in raw round-count firepower... and there would be merit to that argument also but again all depending on the situation you happen to find yourself in.
In the setup of a testing protocol for the 9mm R.I.P. ammo the first thing that I do is look at the bragging points of the manufacturer and validate against their "claims". Typically, that is a clue or insight into whether or not there is more marketing "HYPE" vs. substance, and quickly separates the men from the boys quickly or the true engineers vs. those that simply spread hype in pursuit of sales...
G2's Claims:
9mm R.I.P. velocity = 1,265 fps = 490 ft-lbs energy (these claims seem to have been revised down to 358 ft-lbs)
Reality: 9mm R.I.P as tested in 6" ported / extended 9mm Glock = 1,305 fps that translates to about 363 ft-lbs)
Ok, so just in this initial observation I would say their claims while on par they do not state their test weapon or barrel length, so the claims of velocity and energy are still within specification and we found them a little better but the kinetic energy calculations are evident that energy is on the light side comparative to other bullets.
Cases in point: (My test benchmarks to be used as comparison to the G2 RIP)
1) 9mm +p 135 Grain Flexlock Critical Duty Hornady, Velocity = 1,110 fps - Energy = 369 (Hornady website)
FACT: http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-LUGER-P-135-gr-FlexLock-Critical-DUTY/
2) 9mm +p 135 Grain Flexlock Critical Duty Hornady, Velocity = 1,195 fps - Energy = 428 (my hand loads)
So with that as the benchmark, look at this:
1. 9mm RIP Ammo 96 Grain Bullet, Velocity =1,265 fps, Energy = 358 ft. lbs
2. 9mm +P 135 Grain FlexLock (factory ammo), Velocity =1,110 fps, Energy = 369 ft. lbs
3. 9mm 135 Grain FlexLock (WCG loaded), Velocity =1,195 fps, Energy = 428 ft. lbs
---
1. 9mm 115 Grain XTP - Velocity = 1,165 fps, Energy = 341 ft. lbs
2. 9mm 124 Grain XTP - Velocity = 1,110 fps, Energy = 339 ft. lbs
3. 9mm 147 Grain XTP - Velocity = 975 fps, Energy = 310 ft. lbs
Those are the facts people! You will not win an argument with Kinetic laws of Energy (bullet weight to velocity is a "known state" a formula dictated by the laws of physics)
Don't believe it? > http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/energy.htm?bw=147&bv=975
Simple math people. And while variations down range will change based upon BC and SD of the bullet tested those are the benchmarks in terms of speed and energy.
Now, let's talk what energy does:
Energy to bullets is like Ft. Lbs. torque when talking about vehicle engines.... in NASCAR, Horsepower (relative to FPS or speed of a bullet), does NOT win races. Horsepower has never won a NASCAR race.
Torque is relative to Energy. Torque is what wins races in NASCAR, NOT horsepower. Putting down maximum ENERGY or (Torque) to the pavement in the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time is what wins NASCAR.
Point made, not going to argue that. So, having achieved a logical win to ignorance of the relevance of velocity and energy, here are my initial impressions regarding the G2 RIP Ammo:
1. They are not Hyping velocity or energy claims and seem to have adjusted their claims. That gives them a plus in my book.
2. Lackluster energy - a reason I never liked the 9mm round however, a fact is the G2 holds it's own in terms of both velocity and energy claims against the Hornady loadings either factory or hand loaded.
I am not going to compare to other manufactures types because Hornady as to pistol rounds lead the pack and that is a fact jack, shoot what you like, the XTP round is going to pulverize the Speer Gold Dot or the Winchester loadings every time in accuracy, reliability of feed, speed and energy. Just a fact.
Now, judging from the videos from G2 Research, Inc. it appears that the energy of the round dissipates "too early" in the ballistic gelatin. My initial findings and observations not a fact!
Once the Trocar tipped fins separate, the projectile that continues on has lost a substantial amount of its weight and creates a smaller wound channel. You can see that in the videos from G2, so they are not trying to hype or deceive anyone. They are stating a fact of "purpose" or intended purpose of the round "as-tested".
Also, I see nothing about how the round will act when the Trocar fins strike bone... it seems like they wouldn't be very effective against larger boned people.
TEST #1:
However, I have done four initial tests against penetration of multiple layers of denim to effect on dry bone, and so far, for penetration I would give the G2 a rating of 6 out of 10 against the XTP in either 124 or 147 grain loadings.
Summary:
Now that a test protocol and benchmark against an industry standard has been established, we can get to documenting the facts via, further testing with pictures and some video results. We will not be doing any high-speed or slow-mo videos, just real-world results of the round compared to relative hits to intended targets.
What I did find in all initial testing however is ZERO failures to feed in even the lowest cost of weaponry and age of the weapon so I rate the feeding of the ammo as a solid 10 out of 10. 100% NO FTE's so that argument is really one nobody is going to win over me... PERIOD.
Having said that, it is important to note I had 1 FTE with a factory Hornady FlexLock! So there you go!
Perhaps if people spent more of their time practicing their shot placement instead of bickering over which caliber of round is more lethal, there wouldn't be a need for this ultra-hyper-frangible types of ammunition of which I have NEVER been a big fan of at all. Hope that gives you some insight to my further testing but I will NOT let my personal opinions affect the science behind the facts.
The point I am trying to make is that this ammunition has a BIG hurdle to overcome with me and our experiences in terms of a hyper-velocity frangible round... and as many of you know, I am a BIG pro-supporter of large caliber super ultra velocity, hyper-velocity in terms of the rifles we build > http://weatherbyman.net/
This will be an interesting test to say the least, let's not let emotions get in the middle of science or relationships between friend or foe! Let the testing begin! More to come!
Corey James
Chief Weapons Designer, WCG, Inc.
Our G2 Research, INC., Testing with downloadable links:
WCG, Inc. Phase II Testing completed. Please see some pictures of the testing.
Note: ZERO Failures to Feed, ZERO failures to extract. Flawless performance of feed and extraction and that is just a fact! The arguments of "these will fail to feed or have feed issues" is NOT a valid argument and will not hold merit with us at all. They do not fail to run in the weapons as-tested.
Performance in flight? How was it? Well under the 2" @ 20 yards and that my friends very impressive! Outstanding performance of flight characteristics of this RIP ammo (as-tested 9mm, 96.0 grain).
Penetration? Just look at the pics. Retained Fragment weight = 44.1 average, very impressive.
Speed as tested 1,290 to 1,300 FPS in a Glock22C modified with Lone Wolf 9mm barrel and 9mm magazines. Also testing was performed for feed issues with a KELTEC P-11 (at the lower-end of quality of weapons), and the performance of feed and extraction were flawless.
RESULTS:
WCG, Inc. - Phase II Testing Data
The G2 Research RIP Bullets (3), shot 2/5/2014 @ 14:15 hours. Results are shot at 15 yards - deep penetration (5 layers heavy burlap carpet (rolled making 10 layers), and a 2"x6" Pine Board (behind rolled carpet).
The baseline 9mm Hornday 124 Gr. XTP, shot #1:
124 Grain Hornady XTP at 1,210 FPS – shot though carpet lodged in pine board as a control shot.
The G2 Bullets: #2, #3 & #4 (96Gr. RIP Bullet fired at 1,304 FPS from the same weapon (Glock Model 22C/9mm Conversion) - shot rapid fire #2, #3, #4 @ 15 yards.
----
The Control (baseline):
1. The first baseline was the 124 Grain Hornady XTP 9mm bullet did NOT penetrate the 10 layers of carpet. The bullet went into the ground (could not recover after pass-through), 2nd Control XTP bullet shot passed though 10 layers, and embedded in the 2”x 6” Pine Board.
2. Shots, 2-4 were the G2 Research, Inc. 96 gr. RIP Bullets shot at same distance into 5 rolled layers of burlap carpet (equiv. to 12 layers of denim)
3. Recovered 96 Grain Fragment was weighed at 44.1 grains retained after penetration through (completely through) 2" x 6" Pine board – please note that he remaining fragment actually fused to the separated lead core from the control shot of the XTP Hornady Bullet in the pine board.
It was removed prior to validation of retained weight of the G2 Core Fragment. 4. Note the entry and exit in the pine board after passing 5 layers (in effect 10 layers) as it went in and out and into the pine board --- pictures tell the story.
-- this G2 delivers a massive “real-world” wound channel potential -- we already know what it does in ballistics gel tests but this is what it does to get there! It demonstrates excellent penetration and delivers maximum energy transfer to the intended target.
This is impressive in all a 9.5” penetration with retained bullet weight as indicated 44.1 grains, two of the remaining R.I.P. bullets did a complete pass-through and tore into the pine board. What appears to be one shot is actually two RIP bullets that shredded the pine board in and out.
SEE LINK TO PPT Below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uul8bt0erijoikz/G2 PhaseII Testing.ppt
Link to pictures of the results of G2 can be found @ this link below:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kholr52sj93cet1/wXphtmfedS
All results tested by: http://weatherbyman.net/
