leoparddog
Senior Member
I have tried to stay out of this arguement but this is beyond the pale. Please help me respond to these charges. I know this is way long, help me tell these people the other side. Thanks LD9.
"Before we get into the local issues, I want everyone to understand the pain, suffering and death that is hunting. It is estimated that 15% of the all animals shot are not killed immediately. This leaves the animals to fight to survive under excruciatingly painful conditions. Many times these animals travel for miles while they slowing bleed to death. A 1986 study found that archery deer hunters were estimated to have retrieved only 43% of the deer hit by arrows. That means 57% of the severely wounded animals died a slow, agonizing death as they dragged themselves away from the hunters.
If you take away only one thing from this response, let it be that hunters hunt for one reason and one reason only. And that reason is they enjoy the thrill of killing defenseless animals for fun.
Several years ago I watched a hunting show on TV. The hunter was killing coyotes on the open plains somewhere in the West. The hunter used a mating call of coyotes to lure the animals out into the open. Soon a solitary coyote appeared. The hunter went into a lean-to where he had mounted his rifle. He got the unsuspecting coyote in his sights and proceeded to blow it away with one shot. He then said “that was fun”! And oh, by the way, the coyote was lactating which means that her pups which were going to die because their mother was killed. Some sport, uh?
In a recent National Geographic special, a hunter said “you can’t understand the thrill of hunting unless you experience it first hand”. Ted Nugent, the supreme leader of hunting encourages people to “shoot animals, not drugs”. Make no mistake, hunters hunt for the thrill of the kill. Hunting in not about conservation, heritage, feeding the poor or any other excuse. And to label hunting as a “sport” is absolutely wrong. A sport requires willing participants. The animals are not willing participants.
Here’s what one cull was like in Minnesota from someone who gives a first hand account: “I witnessed four bucks frantically running along the top ridge of one of the pools. Then I saw the fifth buck, his rear leg dangling behind him as he limped along as fast as he could. I watched those animals run for their lives non-stop for nine hours that day. Nine hours. Can you imagine?
Marathoners run a slow controlled pace for 4-5 hours at a time and then take a month off to recover. These deer ran for nine hours as fast as they could to save their life, to save the life of their children. Nine hours with no rest, no food, no water, no warning. Nine hours they dodged arrows, jumped over logs, ran through snow and brush, and ran from the humans they thought they could trust, humans who chased them back into all of it”. AND THIS WILL BE MORE THE CASE IN STATE PARKS WHERE THERE ARE MANY DEER WHO ARE SO ACCLIMATED TO PEOPLE THEY WILL TAKE FOOD BY HAND. So one day they are being fed by people and the next day, they are being blown away by hunters.
Canned hunts are where the animals are confined by physical fences and a “kill” is guaranteed or you don’t pay. My favorite memory of a canned hunt was with the actor Gerald McCraney. They had tracked an exotic animal (I think it was an élan) to the edge of the game ranch. There the animal was struggling to get away by digging its way under the chain link fence. McCraney and his guides cornered the animal which was now only a few feet away, totally terrified and completely defenseless. They then proceeded to stab it to death. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this the true face of hunting. It is not some noble endeavor intended to help the animals. It is a barbaric blood “sport”. So having painted the true picture of this “sport” let’s look at the comments made.
“I guess I am not real sure what the problem is. Most State Parks in GA
and other states currently allow hunting and they all have hunting
season laws. The only thing that will change when this bill is passed
is that more areas will be open to hunting but it will be regulated”.
First and foremost, only 5% of Georgians hunt. 95% do not hunt. The problem is the 95% don’t know what is happening to their rights to enjoy the state resources, for which they pay the majority in tax dollars. And it will be a done deal before they know what has hit them. At that point will be too late to do anything about it.
I don’t know if “most” state parks currently allow hunting. I would be interested in the source of that. I do know that if SB206 passes, ALL STATES PARKS WILL BE OPEN TO UNLIMITED HUNTING. I also don’t know what she means “will be regulated”. If she means hunters won’t be killing animals while non-hunters are in the park, WELL I WOULD HOPE SO!!! Otherwise she needs to explain that statement and I will respond to it.
"So if you want to take your family and/or dog camping or hiking in a
Georgia state park, you will be out of luck!" is not a very fair
statement. Most hunting takes place in the winter and this is the
time other users aren't out there much anyway.
WRONG!!! Go to http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga.us/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=300&txtPage=5 and you will see that the hunting seasons in Georgia run from August to May, with only June and July being only months in which there is no hunting. And I guarantee you the length of these hunting seasons will only increase. The number one reason for the reduction in the number of hunters in the state is decreased hunting areas. The DNR and the Georgia legislature are absolutely dedicated to making sure that does not happen. This means that hunting on public lands and hunting seasons will only increase, not decrease over time. I envision a time when non-lethal users of state parks will be ones having one weekend a month or less to enjoy their state parks.
Also, the state parks are very good about controlling hunts and keeping other users out while hunting is going on.
Again, I would hope so. People’s lives are stake. But what’s interesting is that even with these controls in place, hunters injure and kill people every year. I’m going out on limb and say this will increase when state parks open to unlimited hunting as people will mistakenly wonder into areas they think are safe. Here are some of the grisly headlines just from October of 2004 relating to hunting fatalities and injuries:...<Leoparddog>...LOTS and LOTS Of links from around the nation follow - this person knows how to google....
"“Allowing hunting also helps control the deer
population”.
Wrong. Hunting is the reason why we have a huge deer overpopulation problem. Hunting is the second leading reason for species extinction in the world, behind only land development. In fact, hunters had hunted the white tail deer to near extinction in the 1920s. It was only at the demand of hunters that the federal government stepped in to correct the problems. But the hunters didn’t do it because they cared about the deer. They did to make sure they had something to kill. They could care less about the preservation of the species. This is all too apparent in what they kill. Instead of killing the weak, sick or physically inferior members of the herd, they are killing the biggest and the strongest. Why? Because it’s all about the trophy. Their own self worth is measured by the size of the animal they killed. Intensive buck (trophy) hunting increases deer numbers. For example, Pennsylvania has become a virtual "Baby Factory" for deer. "With proportionately fewer female deer being taken from the ecosystems of Pennsylvania, the reproductive capacities of deer herds had increased dramatically" (The Hunter's Game, Louis S. Warren, Yale University Press, 1997. ) Few Pennsylvania bucks ever live to see their second birthday and the ratio of females-to-males varies between estimates of 5-1 to 30-1 in some areas of the state. Inquirer Magazine, April 2,2000. Today there is an estimated 1.4 million deer in Pennsylvania (Inquirer Magazine, 4/2/00) due to a century of deer mis-management by the Pennsylvania Game Commission. The Pennsylvania Game Commission derives 70% of its funding from the sale of hunting licenses, fees, permits, and taxes, so it has managed deer herds to increase deer numbers.
There is a phenomenon called “compensatory rebound” where females will over produce to compensate for dwindling numbers. The result is a net INCREASE in deer numbers. A great example of this is Great Swamp state park in New Jersey. At Great Swamp, there was a deer overpopulation problem. So the state opened the area to deer hunting. TWO YEARS LATER, AFTER FULL SEASON HUNTS, THERE WERE MORE DEER IN THE PARK THAN WHEN THEY STARTED THE HUNT.
Also, take into consideration Red Top Mountain. The situation at Red Top Mountain was created by mismanagement by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The situation could have been addressed by using non-lethal immuno-contraceptives (ICs). Red Top was an ideal situation to use ICs because of the limited access in and out of the targeted area and because the herd was relatively small. The DNR decided to ignore the recommendations because the last thing DNR and hunters want is to have non-lethal alternatives to be successful in controlling animal populations. This takes away their primary justification for hunting. And understand that the DNR is first and foremost a hunting advocacy group. Most if not all of it’s board members are hunters. And there are no true animal advocates on the board.
“The deer population is way too large and the deer are starving to death or wander into the streets looking for a source of food and get hit by a car”.
Oh yeah? Well consider these statistics from Pennsylvania:
1. 50 % of all deer-car collision claims occurs during
October, November and December -primarily due to hunting. Hunters will claim that this is mating season but it's not. Deer mate in October - a time when the deer-car collision rate was 1600. The vast majority of deer-car collision claims - i.e. 4524 claims - occurred in November to December during hunting season not mating season.
2. The counties with the highest number of deer-car collisions were among the most heavily hunted counties based on statistics from Erie Insurance and the Pennsylvania Game Commission.
3. Pennsylvania Deer-car collisions averaged 34 deer claims
per day for the year. But on the first day of buck season the average was 157 and on the first day of doe season it was 160 - a five-fold increase!
And again, keep in mind that even Georgia DNR admitted that the deer overpopulation at Red Top Mountain was their fault. If we allow nature to take its course the problem will solve itself. That that will never happen. In fact, the use of natural predators to control populations is strongly resisted by hunters. Take for example the aerial shooting of wolves in Alaska. The government does this to appease the hunters because the wolves will naturally take care of the moose population. But hunters want to “take care of the problem” by hunting the moose. Wolves mean less targets for the hunters. The same thing is true of bobcats in Pennsylvania. "
"Before we get into the local issues, I want everyone to understand the pain, suffering and death that is hunting. It is estimated that 15% of the all animals shot are not killed immediately. This leaves the animals to fight to survive under excruciatingly painful conditions. Many times these animals travel for miles while they slowing bleed to death. A 1986 study found that archery deer hunters were estimated to have retrieved only 43% of the deer hit by arrows. That means 57% of the severely wounded animals died a slow, agonizing death as they dragged themselves away from the hunters.
If you take away only one thing from this response, let it be that hunters hunt for one reason and one reason only. And that reason is they enjoy the thrill of killing defenseless animals for fun.
Several years ago I watched a hunting show on TV. The hunter was killing coyotes on the open plains somewhere in the West. The hunter used a mating call of coyotes to lure the animals out into the open. Soon a solitary coyote appeared. The hunter went into a lean-to where he had mounted his rifle. He got the unsuspecting coyote in his sights and proceeded to blow it away with one shot. He then said “that was fun”! And oh, by the way, the coyote was lactating which means that her pups which were going to die because their mother was killed. Some sport, uh?
In a recent National Geographic special, a hunter said “you can’t understand the thrill of hunting unless you experience it first hand”. Ted Nugent, the supreme leader of hunting encourages people to “shoot animals, not drugs”. Make no mistake, hunters hunt for the thrill of the kill. Hunting in not about conservation, heritage, feeding the poor or any other excuse. And to label hunting as a “sport” is absolutely wrong. A sport requires willing participants. The animals are not willing participants.
Here’s what one cull was like in Minnesota from someone who gives a first hand account: “I witnessed four bucks frantically running along the top ridge of one of the pools. Then I saw the fifth buck, his rear leg dangling behind him as he limped along as fast as he could. I watched those animals run for their lives non-stop for nine hours that day. Nine hours. Can you imagine?
Marathoners run a slow controlled pace for 4-5 hours at a time and then take a month off to recover. These deer ran for nine hours as fast as they could to save their life, to save the life of their children. Nine hours with no rest, no food, no water, no warning. Nine hours they dodged arrows, jumped over logs, ran through snow and brush, and ran from the humans they thought they could trust, humans who chased them back into all of it”. AND THIS WILL BE MORE THE CASE IN STATE PARKS WHERE THERE ARE MANY DEER WHO ARE SO ACCLIMATED TO PEOPLE THEY WILL TAKE FOOD BY HAND. So one day they are being fed by people and the next day, they are being blown away by hunters.
Canned hunts are where the animals are confined by physical fences and a “kill” is guaranteed or you don’t pay. My favorite memory of a canned hunt was with the actor Gerald McCraney. They had tracked an exotic animal (I think it was an élan) to the edge of the game ranch. There the animal was struggling to get away by digging its way under the chain link fence. McCraney and his guides cornered the animal which was now only a few feet away, totally terrified and completely defenseless. They then proceeded to stab it to death. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this the true face of hunting. It is not some noble endeavor intended to help the animals. It is a barbaric blood “sport”. So having painted the true picture of this “sport” let’s look at the comments made.
“I guess I am not real sure what the problem is. Most State Parks in GA
and other states currently allow hunting and they all have hunting
season laws. The only thing that will change when this bill is passed
is that more areas will be open to hunting but it will be regulated”.
First and foremost, only 5% of Georgians hunt. 95% do not hunt. The problem is the 95% don’t know what is happening to their rights to enjoy the state resources, for which they pay the majority in tax dollars. And it will be a done deal before they know what has hit them. At that point will be too late to do anything about it.
I don’t know if “most” state parks currently allow hunting. I would be interested in the source of that. I do know that if SB206 passes, ALL STATES PARKS WILL BE OPEN TO UNLIMITED HUNTING. I also don’t know what she means “will be regulated”. If she means hunters won’t be killing animals while non-hunters are in the park, WELL I WOULD HOPE SO!!! Otherwise she needs to explain that statement and I will respond to it.
"So if you want to take your family and/or dog camping or hiking in a
Georgia state park, you will be out of luck!" is not a very fair
statement. Most hunting takes place in the winter and this is the
time other users aren't out there much anyway.
WRONG!!! Go to http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga.us/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=300&txtPage=5 and you will see that the hunting seasons in Georgia run from August to May, with only June and July being only months in which there is no hunting. And I guarantee you the length of these hunting seasons will only increase. The number one reason for the reduction in the number of hunters in the state is decreased hunting areas. The DNR and the Georgia legislature are absolutely dedicated to making sure that does not happen. This means that hunting on public lands and hunting seasons will only increase, not decrease over time. I envision a time when non-lethal users of state parks will be ones having one weekend a month or less to enjoy their state parks.
Also, the state parks are very good about controlling hunts and keeping other users out while hunting is going on.
Again, I would hope so. People’s lives are stake. But what’s interesting is that even with these controls in place, hunters injure and kill people every year. I’m going out on limb and say this will increase when state parks open to unlimited hunting as people will mistakenly wonder into areas they think are safe. Here are some of the grisly headlines just from October of 2004 relating to hunting fatalities and injuries:...<Leoparddog>...LOTS and LOTS Of links from around the nation follow - this person knows how to google....
"“Allowing hunting also helps control the deer
population”.
Wrong. Hunting is the reason why we have a huge deer overpopulation problem. Hunting is the second leading reason for species extinction in the world, behind only land development. In fact, hunters had hunted the white tail deer to near extinction in the 1920s. It was only at the demand of hunters that the federal government stepped in to correct the problems. But the hunters didn’t do it because they cared about the deer. They did to make sure they had something to kill. They could care less about the preservation of the species. This is all too apparent in what they kill. Instead of killing the weak, sick or physically inferior members of the herd, they are killing the biggest and the strongest. Why? Because it’s all about the trophy. Their own self worth is measured by the size of the animal they killed. Intensive buck (trophy) hunting increases deer numbers. For example, Pennsylvania has become a virtual "Baby Factory" for deer. "With proportionately fewer female deer being taken from the ecosystems of Pennsylvania, the reproductive capacities of deer herds had increased dramatically" (The Hunter's Game, Louis S. Warren, Yale University Press, 1997. ) Few Pennsylvania bucks ever live to see their second birthday and the ratio of females-to-males varies between estimates of 5-1 to 30-1 in some areas of the state. Inquirer Magazine, April 2,2000. Today there is an estimated 1.4 million deer in Pennsylvania (Inquirer Magazine, 4/2/00) due to a century of deer mis-management by the Pennsylvania Game Commission. The Pennsylvania Game Commission derives 70% of its funding from the sale of hunting licenses, fees, permits, and taxes, so it has managed deer herds to increase deer numbers.
There is a phenomenon called “compensatory rebound” where females will over produce to compensate for dwindling numbers. The result is a net INCREASE in deer numbers. A great example of this is Great Swamp state park in New Jersey. At Great Swamp, there was a deer overpopulation problem. So the state opened the area to deer hunting. TWO YEARS LATER, AFTER FULL SEASON HUNTS, THERE WERE MORE DEER IN THE PARK THAN WHEN THEY STARTED THE HUNT.
Also, take into consideration Red Top Mountain. The situation at Red Top Mountain was created by mismanagement by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The situation could have been addressed by using non-lethal immuno-contraceptives (ICs). Red Top was an ideal situation to use ICs because of the limited access in and out of the targeted area and because the herd was relatively small. The DNR decided to ignore the recommendations because the last thing DNR and hunters want is to have non-lethal alternatives to be successful in controlling animal populations. This takes away their primary justification for hunting. And understand that the DNR is first and foremost a hunting advocacy group. Most if not all of it’s board members are hunters. And there are no true animal advocates on the board.
“The deer population is way too large and the deer are starving to death or wander into the streets looking for a source of food and get hit by a car”.
Oh yeah? Well consider these statistics from Pennsylvania:
1. 50 % of all deer-car collision claims occurs during
October, November and December -primarily due to hunting. Hunters will claim that this is mating season but it's not. Deer mate in October - a time when the deer-car collision rate was 1600. The vast majority of deer-car collision claims - i.e. 4524 claims - occurred in November to December during hunting season not mating season.
2. The counties with the highest number of deer-car collisions were among the most heavily hunted counties based on statistics from Erie Insurance and the Pennsylvania Game Commission.
3. Pennsylvania Deer-car collisions averaged 34 deer claims
per day for the year. But on the first day of buck season the average was 157 and on the first day of doe season it was 160 - a five-fold increase!
And again, keep in mind that even Georgia DNR admitted that the deer overpopulation at Red Top Mountain was their fault. If we allow nature to take its course the problem will solve itself. That that will never happen. In fact, the use of natural predators to control populations is strongly resisted by hunters. Take for example the aerial shooting of wolves in Alaska. The government does this to appease the hunters because the wolves will naturally take care of the moose population. But hunters want to “take care of the problem” by hunting the moose. Wolves mean less targets for the hunters. The same thing is true of bobcats in Pennsylvania. "
