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Excellent CWD article
- Thread starter Major Wader
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Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
Finally an objective article for a change.
Bastion has done other research in similar encephalopathies like CJD and Alzheimers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/389196
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28059790
The larger question is, since it is most likely possible that prions are merely a marker present in some encephalopathy victims, and since spiroplasmas are plant based bacteria, where do we begin looking for the root cause?
Bastion has done other research in similar encephalopathies like CJD and Alzheimers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/389196
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28059790
The larger question is, since it is most likely possible that prions are merely a marker present in some encephalopathy victims, and since spiroplasmas are plant based bacteria, where do we begin looking for the root cause?
shdw633
Senior Member
Great article!! Thanks for sharing!!
Jim Boyd
Senior Member
I like the read but it left me wondering - what was the point of the article other than “we are not sure” what the cause is.
A field test for harvested animals would be ideal for folks that hunt known affected (or potentially affected) areas.
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A field test for harvested animals would be ideal for folks that hunt known affected (or potentially affected) areas.
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C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
Except that pretty much every other scientist on the planet completely disagrees with his theory.
Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
Thread Killer!!
And on a side note.. Scientists are like politicians to me.. They’re opinions can be swayed by $$$..
shdw633
Senior Member
Maybe they ought to rethink their position because their position has not gotten us anywhere to this point. There comes a time when the experts tell everyone something for so long with no results that they lose faith in what they are saying and start to pay them no mind. I think that's where we are headed with CWD.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
Their position is where the objective science has led them, so they should just change the facts because someone doesn't like them? I'm not sure what you mean by their position has not gotten us anywhere.
shdw633
Senior Member
I think they are stuck on one conclusion (prions) because that's all they have been able to come up with under their current thinking and are not willing to look elsewhere or give credence to others' science. I just feel that it's not leading to anything positive and no one wants to look elsewhere for a different solution because of all the time and money they have spent on their current conclusions. Deer show up out of nowhere with the disease miles from any infected deer, why??? The deer in Mississippi shows up miles from any known CWD and yet they say the deer must have swam the Mississippi River from Arkansas and got it over there. That is not realistic in my book and makes it hard to swallow the total prions conclusion. Understand that I am not saying that prions don't have anything to do with it but when a deer in lower Michigan shows up with CWD literally hundeds of miles away from the nearest known CWD, which was on a farm in captivity, which is near the upper portion of the state, how did it get it? Now, several deer over several counties have been found to have it in a relatively short period of time, I am pretty sure that CWD deer, the first one ever found in the wild, did not traverse over all those counties in which to spread the disease and yet we want to say it gets in the ground and that's how it's spread. There is something missing, whether it's spread through insects or airborne or the deer have it in their gene and something causes it to come to the surface, similar to humans that all have cancer cells, but we all don't get cancer. I am just saying I think at this junction everything should be on the table and no theories should be dismissed.
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Long Cut
Senior Member
Scientists are wrong all of the time. I think at this point it’s nice to see somebody going against the grain, so to speak, to potentially find some answers?
Major Wader
Senior Member
What if prions are a symptom, not the cause?
Personally, I see CWD and prions as similar to man made global warming. Both are the "accepted" theory, and the mainstream community won't discuss anything else. Even when they are proven wrong multiple times, or can't identify why what they predicted doesn't happen.
Personally, I see CWD and prions as similar to man made global warming. Both are the "accepted" theory, and the mainstream community won't discuss anything else. Even when they are proven wrong multiple times, or can't identify why what they predicted doesn't happen.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
My passion is more in the field of extreme weather and I've had a couple of decades watching pseudo theories based in profits and not in sound scientific facts that are time and laboratory tested. The nice thing about having decades to observe these flimflam artists is they, thus far, are operating at a 100% failure rate on all of their predictions on Global Warming.
What does this have to do with CWD? Well, it's science and good reputable scientist don't subscribe to the fad de jour when their reputation and career is on the line, but then again, we are in a different era where reputations will be sold in a heartbeat at the chance to make good money up front.
To the point, as early as 1982 reputable scientist, in fact the community of biologist rejected "prions" as the cause for "mad cow" disease, the bovine equivalent of CWD.
https://whyfiles.org/012mad_cow/3.html
The problem with modern day "fad" science is it isn't complete. It comes to a quick judgement on a theory not chased to the bitter end and only seeks to satisfy the medias insatiable desire to be the first to claim to know it all, which in fact they rarely do and are ultimately deemed "fake media" and exactly why I call fad scientist "fake science".
Given the sound principles and disciplines in research I would certainly place more weight on Dr. Bastions studies and discoveries as a potential cause, with the expectations of replication in the laboratory and eventual potential for vaccines and cures. Just because the "fake scientist" guffaw at his sound scientific practices does not make them right, just more popular with a particular political crowd that stands to gain monetarily or with an agenda.
Science and Politics never lead to a conclusive, honest end, and yes politics or a political agenda is deeply rooted in this "CWD" dilemma.
Let real scientist do what they do and keep politics out of it.
Iwannashoot
Pesident of the Fla Chaper Useless Billy club.
Great points, and just to take a different angle on your argument; more than say 50 years ago scientists were absolutely dead sure that the electron was the smallest subatomic particle. More and more is being learned all the time in every field; some of it is correct and some will be proved to be false by further scientific exploration. Lets not bash the "contrary position" until a little more water is under the bridge.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
This is not a new idea, it's been around for at least 34 years which is plenty of water under the bridge. Although CWD has been politicized, there's nothing political about whether the causitive agent is a prion or spiroplasma. Just because it's going against the grain doesn't make it correct. We certainly don't have near enough answers on CWD, but there are some important things we do know.
-It's spread through bodily fluids, primarily saliva.
-Once you get it, you're never getting rid of it.
-It's being spread through this country by the transport of live cervids.
-It will not end hunting, but it sure impacts it wherever it occurs.
I'm not trying to argue with y'all, I'm just doing what an objective scientist should do: provide you with a professional opinion based on the best and most comprehensive science available at this time.
-It's spread through bodily fluids, primarily saliva.
-Once you get it, you're never getting rid of it.
-It's being spread through this country by the transport of live cervids.
-It will not end hunting, but it sure impacts it wherever it occurs.
I'm not trying to argue with y'all, I'm just doing what an objective scientist should do: provide you with a professional opinion based on the best and most comprehensive science available at this time.
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Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
And with ^this^ you just threw out 90% of the anti baiters on here that was using it as an excuse.
And Charlie, I value your opinion and knowledge!!
shdw633
Senior Member
I value your opinion as well Charlie and I understand you are only providing what is available to you, but in your own statement you say that they have been on this for 34 years and that's all they got and yet we still have a single deer with CWD that was a wild deer with no other deer known to have it anywhere before or after, wild or farmed, in the state, so how did it get it? More importantly, how come no other deer has gotten it since it was located?
https://www.clarionledger.com/story...asting-disease-mississippi-hunting/796081002/
All I am saying is that maybe it's time for scientists and biologists to be open to this type of thinking or to at least look into it from a different perspective, possibly take something from both theories and run with it in a different direction instead of just ignoring the one side of it because it's not one with the majority. Keep in mind what Miguel Cervantes stated earlier in regards to the fact that in 1982 it wasn't believed to be a prion causing it by the scientific community and yet now it's a fact that it is. Just because it goes against the grain doesn't necessarily make all or part of the theory incorrect either.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
There is no disrespect to anyone, other than the climate wingnut scientist intended in my post, however since CWD IS an encephalopathic disease with many similarities to human diseases it only stands to reason that the Neurological communities in science and wildlife biology should get together and share notes. Bastion isn't the only one looking into Spiroplasma as a cause for encephalopathic diseases.
https://journals.lww.com/neurotoday..._HSP60_MAY_BE_THE_PATHOGEN_RESPONSIBLE.8.aspx
The end result of cooperative studies across the human / animal spectrum could result in a near miraculous approach for treating CJD, Parkinson's, Alzheimers as well as CWD. What harm is there in that?
Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Clearly focusing only on prions aren't garnering the desired results.
https://journals.lww.com/neurotoday..._HSP60_MAY_BE_THE_PATHOGEN_RESPONSIBLE.8.aspx
The end result of cooperative studies across the human / animal spectrum could result in a near miraculous approach for treating CJD, Parkinson's, Alzheimers as well as CWD. What harm is there in that?
Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Clearly focusing only on prions aren't garnering the desired results.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
I'm aware of a link between a former captive facility in the area where the deer was found and a CWD positive captive facility in another state.
The prion theory, virus theory, and spiroplasma theory all emerged in the early 1980's. As each avenue was researched extensively, the science has indicated that prions are the most likely causative agent. Like I said, this isn't a new idea and it's been studied enough over 34 years that the vast majority of scientists have concluded otherwise.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
There's tons of collaborative research for human/animal diseases, I'm not sure why you would assume there isn't. Just because they haven't discovered a cure for prion diseases doesn't mean they aren't caused by prions and that research on prions is ineffective. There is zero debate that HIV is a virus, yet we still don't have a cure for it. Does that mean we should question all the research that told us it was a virus?
Others have studied spiroplasmas as the causative agent for TSEs, but came up with the opposite of Bastian.
"We conclude that the infectious agent responsible for TSE disease cannot be a spiroplasma or any other eubacterial species."
http://jcm.asm.org/content/44/1/91.short
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
I guess Frank Bastian is the last "Bastion" of support for spiroplasma causing TSEs. Sorry, couldn't help myself. You all thought it, someone had to say it!
