Free Grace vs Lordship Salvation

[Ronnie T]

As it relates to how individuals are saved, there are two main positions that scholars take; one position is the free grace view, the other is the lordship salvation view. The former states that a believer receives the right to live with God for all eternity solely by the grace of God which is given at no cost to the believer. The latter states that the right to live with God for all eternity is not only based on trust in God but totally and completely surrendering every aspect of their lives to God.

Now here are some observations about Lordship salvation.
1. In the final analysis, it is salvation by works, which is in direct contrast to the teaching of the Scriptures.
2. If one must accept Christ as Lord of his life in order to be saved, it would of necessity remove growth in grace.
3. Lordship salvation necessitates the doctrine of losing one's salvation. If one must make Jesus his Lord in order to be saved, then when he backslides to the position to where Jesus is no longer his Lord, consistency would drive us to believe that he is no longer saved.
4. Lordship salvation makes no provision for the carnal Christian. None of us takes pleasure in the carnality of a Christian, but the fact remains that there is such a person taught in the Bible.
5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation.
6. Salvation is receiving, not giving.
3. When Christ enters, the old man does not leave.
Perhaps the greatest Christian who ever lived was the Apostle Paul. In speaking of himself he said, "0 wretched man that I am." He called himself "the chief of sinners." He said the things that he would do, he did not, and the things he would not do, he did. Probably Jesus was Lord of more of Paul's life than any other person who ever lived, but Paul himself said he had not yet apprehended.
by Dr. Jack Hyles:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm

I don't know why but I am drawn back to this OP in this thread this morning.
Should we be embarrassed to even consider anything less that what I've highlighted in blue above?
Are we, and have we become the people of Noah's day? So filled with ourselves and our desire to live lives that can only be committed to ourselves. Are people no longer capable of living with an acknowledgement that Jesus is the lord of their life?........ That I can somehow, somehow.... believe in Him and trust in Him, but not realized Him as Lord?

Here's another statement from the original post:
"5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation."
Frankly, this is the statement of scriptural fool!!!!!
Jesus Christ IS Lord.
Ask Adam and Eve if grace and Lordship work together. Or Cain. Or Peter. Or Annanias and his wife.

The thought of separating grace and lordship is hogwash.

.

 

[Israel]

I get that.

But I admit often I'll go to the point of a complete train wreck before that One is seen by me as the all of it.
Nowhere else have we to go. No one has words of life, none take us on and have us emptied of all we are.... yet in that death be filled with Himself -
but seen only with faith.
I'm becoming more content in that, just wish this 'ol clay would stop pushing "those buttons" .

House hunting has been a real button stomper!

It's great to be "gotten"...and I mean that profoundly.
I think sometimes of those places where the Lord speaks of having "joy" in us...and I see more and more how much it is to do with understanding him...receiving him...his finding someone who either seeks to...or "gets" him.
And I only speak of that from my own meager perspective...that is...since I am discovering how rare and precious it is for anyone to say "I understand you" since I am rather simple and easily sorted out...how much more the Lord must appreciate it.


Maybe someone will get this...maybe not...


And I believe I say this without shame.

I would be a liar to deny how much and how often I am ashamed of the man I am. But, that being said...even in the midst of that...I see hope. And the seeing of that hope does a remarkable thing about the experience of that shame.
It is not that I am surprised I am not a better man...but more like...wow, Lord...no wonder you had to die! No wonder you didn't let me see this at the beginning...I don't know if the depths of it would have been anything but discouraging...

And, without shame I again say...I am stupid to think I have actually seen anything but the surface scratched. And I am not encouraging anyone to go on a depths of depravity safari.
I simply see that I am all wrong...and it's allright...because that is who Jesus is...the one who came for the "all wrong".
I simply can't deny it.

He gives me hope when everything else I could possibly see as a reality in that situation argues against it.

And hope, I begin to understand, maketh not ashamed.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't know why but I am drawn back to this OP in this thread this morning.
Should we be embarrassed to even consider anything less that what I've highlighted in blue above?
Are we, and have we become the people of Noah's day? So filled with ourselves and our desire to live lives that can only be committed to ourselves. Are people no longer capable of living with an acknowledgement that Jesus is the lord of their life?........ That I can somehow, somehow.... believe in Him and trust in Him, but not realized Him as Lord?

Here's another statement from the original post:
"5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation."
Frankly, this is the statement of scriptural fool!!!!!
Jesus Christ IS Lord.
Ask Adam and Eve if grace and Lordship work together. Or Cain. Or Peter. Or Annanias and his wife.

The thought of separating grace and lordship is hogwash.

.

Of course Grace & Lordship/Discipleship go together but the point is whether Lordship is part of your salvation.
Baptism, forgiving others, and help sick people are part of Christianity but are they part of our salvation?
I think you started a thread about Discipleship about what would we give up to follow Jesus. Does God want every one of us to become a preacher or missionary? Does he want all of us to sell our homes?
I started this thread after looking and reading some of David Platt's preachings. I'm not against discipleship but I didn't like the way he was wrapping it into salvation. Then he's trying to tell everyone to sell their goods and become a missionary. That's all well and good if the Holy Spirit moves you in that direction but it isn't part of salvation.
Here is a review of his book "Radical" that reflects my view:
Sure, the book contains examples of how David has moved to a smaller house, and how rich people in his church sold everything to give the money to the church, and the struggle David faces in reconciling the teachings of Jesus with pastoring a megachurch. But he's still there and so is the multimillion dollar campus. The people are still rich. The church is still powerful. David is still famous.

Is it possible to have a book written by someone who is not all these things? What about the person who gives the widow's mite? What about the pastor who has served in the same church for 50 years in a dying community? What about the parents who never had children, and didn't have the money to adopt, and didn't qualify for foster care, but still took care of needy children in their neighborhood?

What about the family who could never downsize their home because they never owned a home? What about the pastor who grew his church from 10 to 100, and then, rather than give himself a raise, took a pay cut and a second job so he could send 50 of those people to another part of the city to plant a new church? This is radical. This is following Jesus. This is living your faith outside the American dream. I personally know people who have done all these things. To me, they are the true radicals.

http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Takin...?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

 

[Artfuldodger]

There is a difference between the requirements for and the results of salvation. One can blurr the line of distinction between the doctrines of salvation and discipleship. It requires an upfront commitment to the "good works" of discipleship in "exchange" for salvation. It shows our obedience to God is part of our salvation instead of our love of God after we have salvation. We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Now if you want to talk about the importance of discipleship we can do that but I don't see how we can add it to our salvation.

 

[StriperAddict]

No luck on finding a house yet?

Bless you brother for asking..

Another contract has begun, and the wait begins again at the time of this writing. As our brother Israel shared, I am content in the hope of God's work, even in this struggle with self and some vain reasoning's during the process.
By faith I see and cling to the greater good, sans my own feeble input and understanding.

Well content with my weakness? Maybe I'm not there quite yet! But I've said before, I'll hope in what my eyes do not see... and I might rest while the trial continues,
while God shakes and breaks,
and molds us unto the hidden life already alive within.


And please pray. I am always well content in that!

 

[StriperAddict]

And I believe I say this without shame.

I would be a liar to deny how much and how often I am ashamed of the man I am. But, that being said...even in the midst of that...I see hope. And the seeing of that hope does a remarkable thing about the experience of that shame.
It is not that I am surprised I am not a better man...but more like...wow, Lord...no wonder you had to die! No wonder you didn't let me see this at the beginning...I don't know if the depths of it would have been anything but discouraging...

And, without shame I again say...I am stupid to think I have actually seen anything but the surface scratched. And I am not encouraging anyone to go on a depths of depravity safari.
I simply see that I am all wrong...and it's allright...because that is who Jesus is...the one who came for the "all wrong".
I simply can't deny it.

He gives me hope when everything else I could possibly see as a reality in that situation argues against it.

And hope, I begin to understand, maketh not ashamed.

Bless you Israel. So many amens here, especially for what's highlighted.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm glad you mentioned "Hope." We don't talk about hope very much.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The whole chapter 13 talks about our discipleship being worthless without love. We can tie faith, hope, & love into our discipleship.

 

[StriperAddict]

Hope... !

Here's some wonderful verses of necessity I am clinging to lately...

Romans 5:3-5
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; <sup class="versenum">
</sup><sup class="versenum">4 </sup>and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; <sup class="versenum">
5 </sup>and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[Ronnie T]

There is a difference between the requirements for and the results of salvation. One can blurr the line of distinction between the doctrines of salvation and discipleship. It requires an upfront commitment to the "good works" of discipleship in "exchange" for salvation. It shows our obedience to God is part of our salvation instead of our love of God after we have salvation. We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Now if you want to talk about the importance of discipleship we can do that but I don't see how we can add it to our salvation.

Mine and your meager attempt of it is already there. Or salvation has eluded us. Discipleship is nothing more than loving and seeking.

 

[Israel]

sometimes I think salvation is like air, it's all around...everyone enjoys its benefits...but to those who refuse it...someday will ask..."how was I kept alive by refusing to breathe?"
"Oh", the Lord may reply, "even in your refusal I showed you great mercy and kept you by grace and miraculous power...but now you shall have everything you wanted...and nothing of what you refused...your very own way"
Judas went to his own place.

Me...I am just beginning to discover, having my own way, and being alone...is the place where I have gnashed my own teeth to the bone.
I have been the bully on the playground, and when I have scared everyone else off...I find it is no playground anymore.

 

[Ronnie T]

Whenever a 'lover of Christ' discusses salvation they will often find themselves in the same dark corner as Paul was in 2Cor 12....... discussing salvation without appearing to boast.

There's no room for boasting in salvation. There never is. But as in the case of Paul, salvation and life in Christ should not be allowed to become a garbage heap.

There simply must be an acceptance of Christ's lordship in the life of a person who has accepted the touch of God's son. Yet even as I acknowledge it, I see my own failures. But my failures don't change the truth of the Lordship of Christ.
.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Whenever a 'lover of Christ' discusses salvation they will often find themselves in the same dark corner as Paul was in 2Cor 12....... discussing salvation without appearing to boast.

There's no room for boasting in salvation. There never is. But as in the case of Paul, salvation and life in Christ should not be allowed to become a garbage heap.

There simply must be an acceptance of Christ's lordship in the life of a person who has accepted the touch of God's son. Yet even as I acknowledge it, I see my own failures. But my failures don't change the truth of the Lordship of Christ.
.

It's very hard not to boast. Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

 

[Israel]

It's very hard not to boast. Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Yes.
It is the seeking out of how that thing that so loves to do that (boast)...in fact has made it its sole and major occupation, has been put to death in the Lord that frees us to preach the gospel. Otherwise it simply becomes something other than the truth. Which is called a lie.

And is nothing less than an occasion for the flesh to proclaim "my God is better than your God so do as I say..."

Are we disqualified? No.
Do we learn through many chastenings? Yes.

This gospel really is true, God is love. And no amount of arm twisting, service, sacrifice, pleading could get him to love any of us more than he already does...or even love any "other"...any less.

As Groucho Marx wisely said:

"I would not belong to any club that would have me as a member"

The club mentality, the in crowd, the out crowd, all...put to death through the body of Messiah.

 

[mtnwoman]

It's very hard not to boast. Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Exactly... I don't boast because God chose me and maybe not you! I praise God for giving me the option of the cross.

 

[hawglips]

I think Christians should believe what Christ said about salvation - all of it.

 

[rjcruiser]

I think Christians should believe what Christ said about salvation - all of it.

I absolutely agree with you. The Bible paints a complete picture of salvation....no reason to add to it or take away from it.

 

[Big7]

EVERY DENOMINATION except ONE is a schism.
It was the first and it will be the last.

Only thing close is Eastern Orthodox.

You guy's need to just stop.

Especially some of the post's on the first 2 pages.

 

[rjcruiser]

EVERY DENOMINATION except ONE is a schism.
It was the first and it will be the last.

Only thing close is Eastern Orthodox.

You guy's need to just stop.

Especially some of the post's on the first 2 pages.

I'm betting if you asked the Eastern Orthodox who was the only one...they'd say they were

BTW...welcome back. Dawg2 has been holding down the fort pretty well for y'all. Miss some of those oldies but goodies with you and Dominic.