I Have a Question

[ambush80]

Sometimes I have string or tie down straps in my truck bed. Often times after driving around they tie themselves into over hand knots. I've also seen a half hitch thrown around a loop. Does this show order or complexity coming from disorder?

 

[atlashunter]

Zeus works in mysterious ways.

 

[ambush80]

Zeus works in mysterious ways.

Indeed he does but do these knots show the opposite of entropy? Also, is me interpreting the knots as some kind of order or design the same thing as what this guy is doing?

 

[660griz]

Ever seen those perfect ice circles in rivers? Spooky!

 

[hummerpoo]

Visualize the action required — I once tied a "figure eight" knot in the butt section of my 7'/8' leader while fly fishing. Can we prove or disprove anything, including entropy, by observing an infinitesimally small piece of it?

 

[ambush80]

Visualize the action required — I once tied a "figure eight" knot in the butt section of my 7'/8' leader while fly fishing. Can we prove or disprove anything, including entropy, by observing an infinitesimally small piece of it?

I think so. If someone makes a claim like "order cannot arise from disorder" but my (and your) examples show that it can, then they should stop making that claim.

 

[j_seph]

can we say that we had a perfectly straight, knot free strap or string but once man got involved with it then it ended up not being straight and having knots in it

 

[NCHillbilly]

It shows that Tydowneus, the god of truck-bed ratchet straps, lives and performs his wonders in the heart of your truck bed, just like he does in mine. Since we are fairly widely situated apart geographically, but the same phenomenon occurs to both of us; then we can construe that Tydowneus is indeed a universal god, and has a plan for both of our truck-beds.

 

[hummerpoo]

I think so. If someone makes a claim like "order cannot arise from disorder" but my (and your) examples show that it can, then they should stop making that claim.

Would not "order" require that all proportionally elongated flexible objects (strings, straps, lines, ropes, etc.), or a defined and predictable subset of all such objects, be shown to ultimately rest in a defined and predictable condition (overhand, figure eight, bowline, etc.)? I don't see how the occasional observation is anything other than anecdotal.

 

[swampstalker24]

The argument that complexity must arise by design is an easy argument to dismiss... Mainly because in order to design complexity, the designer must be atleast somewhat more complex than his design... No biggie except then you are left with the notion that if the creator is so complex, by that same argument you would have to assume something even more complex created the creator... What you are left with is infinitie regression in which complexity increases exponentially the further up the chain you go. Im ok with that notion but im not sure the creationists are.

 

[hummerpoo]

The argument that complexity must arise by design is an easy argument to dismiss... Mainly because in order to design complexity, the designer must be atleast somewhat more complex than his design... No biggie except then you are left with the notion that if the creator is so complex, by that same argument you would have to assume something even more complex created the creator... What you are left with is infinitie regression in which complexity increases exponentially the further up the chain you go. Im ok with that notion but im not sure the creationists are.

How does infinite regression have any meaning other than, ultimately, no beginning. How does no beginning have a result? No ultimate cause ... no effect. You are not.

 

[rospaw]

This is not the Pf,Ot or CF? ..... This place is STRANGE! (truck straps) I think i shall move quickly out of here.

 

[StriperrHunterr]

It shows the randomness in the universe.

 

[ambush80]

How does infinite regression have any meaning other than, ultimately, no beginning. How does no beginning have a result? No ultimate cause ... no effect. You are not.

The ideas of nothing and infinity are hard. The idea of an eternal, all powerful being is an easy answer but much harder to understand. Impossible, really, and therefore practically useless. It's a sloppy placeholder for what we don't understand.

 

[ambush80]

It shows the randomness in the universe.

Is it order from chaos, though?

 

[StriperrHunterr]

Is it order from chaos, though?

You perceive it as order. What if you'd wanted those lines to stay separate and orderly versus knotted? You wouldn't consider the knot to be more orderly and anti-entropic would you?

 

[ambush80]

You perceive it as order. What if you'd wanted those lines to stay separate and orderly versus knotted? You wouldn't consider the knot to be more orderly and anti-entropic would you?

That's kind of my point. We project meaning or design onto the results of randomness. When "wind knots" get "tied" in DNA all of a sudden it's a miracle.

 

[hummerpoo]

The ideas of nothing and infinity are hard. The idea of an eternal, all powerful being is an easy answer but much harder to understand. Impossible, really, and therefore practically useless. It's a sloppy placeholder for what we don't understand.

Yes it is; and that’s why it must be experienced. If it is possible for one to place themselves in a place conducive to experiencing the Infinite, that place must be nothingness; for Infinity allows no place for other.

 

[swampstalker24]

How does infinite regression have any meaning other than, ultimately, no beginning. How does no beginning have a result? No ultimate cause ... no effect. You are not.

It means your god requires a creator.... A notion most monotheists would prefer to ignore.

 

[hummerpoo]

How does infinite regression have any meaning other than, ultimately, no beginning. How does no beginning have a result? No ultimate cause ... no effect. You are not.

It means your god requires a creator.... A notion most monotheists would prefer to ignore.

once again

How does infinite regression have any meaning other than, ultimately, no beginning. How does no beginning have a result? No ultimate cause ... no effect. You are not.