It’s Hard to be Seeker-Sensitive When You Work for Jesus

[rjcruiser]

As for the altar call song...where is there an altar call in the NT? Where is the altar for that matter?

I'll agree with you on the altar call thing. It bugs me, but it is not a hill I'm going to die on.

Where is there an office of a youth pastor?

Wasn't Christ a good example of youth/children's pastor when he had the little children come unto him? The disciples tried to brush them off, yet Christ spent time devoted to them.

When your congregation operates under the normative principle of worship odd things occur. When its ordered by the Scripture (regulative principle) the glitz falls off and so does the paparazzi.

So when you pray, do you only pray the Lord's Prayer? Seems like anything else would fall under the normative principle of worship?

 

[fivesolas]

I'll agree with you on the altar call thing. It bugs me, but it is not a hill I'm going to die on.


Wasn't Christ a good example of youth/children's pastor when he had the little children come unto him? The disciples tried to brush them off, yet Christ spent time devoted to them.



So when you pray, do you only pray the Lord's Prayer? Seems like anything else would fall under the normative principle of worship?

To the youth pastor question, I asked where the office of a youth pastor is, not if a pastor should/could minister to youth.

And concerning prayer, did not the Lord say "After this manner therefore pray ye.."

Next...

 

[rjcruiser]

So when you pray, do you only pray the Lord's Prayer? Seems like anything else would fall under the normative principle of worship?

And concerning prayer, did not the Lord say "After this manner therefore pray ye.."

Call me slow, but I didn't get the answer to the question. Can you expand a bit?

 

[fivesolas]

Call me slow, but I didn't get the answer to the question. Can you expand a bit?

Well, the text itself, Matthew 6:9 or Luke 11:2 seem clear enough to me that it a model prayer. Even the context gives this indication. Matt 6:7 says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

So obviously the application of the Regulative Principle here does not mean repeating the words of the prayer in Matt 6 or Luke by wrote. It is a model prayer. We should pray after that manner.

-five

 

[Huntinfool]

I've been searching for the phrase "Regulative Principle" in the Bible....it seems it's just as elusive as that non-biblical office of "Youth Pastor".

That's the great irony that I've always seen in the Regulative Principle. I know my comment above seems a little snippy. It's meant to be funny.

Seriously though. I've been curious for a while about how folks who insist on the Regulative Principle (which you obviously know I don't agree with) reconcile the idea that we essentially aren't to do anything that isn't called for in the text of the Bible....yet the Regulative Principle itself isn't in there.

You could make the argument that it is modeled in the text. But, then, isn't that going against what the Regulative Principle states?

If I were going to assess what I follow, I suppose it would be a mutation of the Normative Principle. I don't think that ANYTHING that is not expressly prohibited in the text is ok as long as the folks in the church are ok with it. I agree, that can get you in a lot of trouble if leadership is not doing its job.

 

[fivesolas]

I've been searching for the phrase "Regulative Principle" in the Bible....it seems it's just as elusive as that non-biblical office of "Youth Pastor".

That's the great irony that I've always seen in the Regulative Principle. I know my comment above seems a little snippy. It's meant to be funny.

Seriously though. I've been curious for a while about how folks who insist on the Regulative Principle (which you obviously know I don't agree with) reconcile the idea that we essentially aren't to do anything that isn't called for in the text of the Bible....yet the Regulative Principle itself isn't in there.

You could make the argument that it is modeled in the text. But, then, isn't that going against what the Regulative Principle states?

If I were going to assess what I follow, I suppose it would be a mutation of the Normative Principle. I don't think that ANYTHING that is not expressly prohibited in the text is ok as long as the folks in the church are ok with it. I agree, that can get you in a lot of trouble if leadership is not doing its job.

I guess I don't see the irony because I don't see the Regulative Principle as not being in Scripture. To me its akin to talking about the Trinity. You cannot find that word in Scripture, but the concept is there.

The Regulative Principle was given its classical and definitive statement in the reformed Confessions formulated in the 17th century. It is stated in Chapter 21 paragraph 1 in the Westminster Confession:

The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and doth good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshiping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.[2]

1. Rom. 1:20; Psa. 19:1-4a; 50:6; 86:8-10; 89:5-7; 95:1-6; 97:6; 104:1-35; 145:9-12; Acts 14:17; Deut. 6:4-5
2. Deut. 4:15-20; 12:32; Matt. 4:9-10; 15:9; Acts 17:23-25; Exod. 20:4-6, John 4:23-24; Col. 2:18-23

Source: http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonRegulativePrinciple.htm

The way the Westminster states this is good and I believe fully supported by Scripture.

-five

 

[Huntinfool]

I actually agree with you that it is laid out very well in that statement.

But, quite honestly, that does not seem to be the regulative principle that you and many people are presenting. You seem to insist that, if it is to be used in worship...it must actually be written in the text of the Bible.

I may be mis-interpreting. I'm just telling you that's how it has come across. If that's the case, then you can see why I asked my first question.

 

[fivesolas]

I actually agree with you that it is laid out very well in that statement.

But, quite honestly, that does not seem to be the regulative principle that you and many people are presenting. You seem to insist that, if it is to be used in worship...it must actually be written in the text of the Bible.

I may be mis-interpreting. I'm just telling you that's how it has come across. If that's the case, then you can see why I asked my first question.

It is certainly possible I am inconsistent...

So where do you think I got away from this

"But the acceptable way of worshiping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture"

In other words, the acceptable manner to woship the true God is according to His own will...or any other way not PRESCRIBED in the Bible.

 

[Huntinfool]

Not sure. Perhaps I didn't read it closely enough the first time.

I guess my question was "Who says what's acceptable to God" and your answer would be, "Only God. And since we ONLY know what he said in scripture...that's what we should follow."

It's a valid idea. I just think it is taken entirely too far by many people. Like, for instance, the whole Youth Pastor thing. You minced words saying non-biblical rather than unbiblical. But the implication was there...

I suppose I just believe that the heart knows when it is truly worshipping. Who are you or I to say "yes" or "no" to acceptability?

We should always adhere to what God has revealed to us in scripture. I think where we differ is WHAT he revealed. Sounds like you would say "well it's right there in black and white (or red)". I would say that God has revealed many things to us about himself and his character that may or may not be in black and white (or red) and on the pages of the text but, rather, are revealed through the lessons learned in the Bible.

Again, I'm not saying right or wrong. I just think that the regulative principle lends itself to legalistic and condemning views of the worship of fellow believers.

I'm gonna get killed for this statement...but who needs a "principle" to tell them how to worship the living God? I'll just be honest. I don't.

It seems like, from your comments, that you look down pretty dramatically on those who would not follow the regulative principle of worship. That's why I'm asking these questions. I just want to get a better feel for what's going on in there.

 

[Double Barrel BB]

I'm gonna get killed for this statement...but who needs a "principle" to tell them how to worship the living God? I'll just be honest. I don't.

You do have one... It is the Bible... otherwise why was The Bible written?

God is the same today as he was long ago, and will be the same forever....

DB BB

 

[fivesolas]

Not sure. Perhaps I didn't read it closely enough the first time.

I guess my question was "Who says what's acceptable to God" and your answer would be, "Only God. And since we ONLY know what he said in scripture...that's what we should follow."

It's a valid idea. I just think it is taken entirely too far by many people. Like, for instance, the whole Youth Pastor thing. You minced words saying non-biblical rather than unbiblical. But the implication was there...

I suppose I just believe that the heart knows when it is truly worshipping. Who are you or I to say "yes" or "no" to acceptability?

We should always adhere to what God has revealed to us in scripture. I think where we differ is WHAT he revealed. Sounds like you would say "well it's right there in black and white (or red)". I would say that God has revealed many things to us about himself and his character that may or may not be in black and white (or red) and on the pages of the text but, rather, are revealed through the lessons learned in the Bible.

Again, I'm not saying right or wrong. I just think that the regulative principle lends itself to legalistic and condemning views of the worship of fellow believers.

I'm gonna get killed for this statement...but who needs a "principle" to tell them how to worship the living God? I'll just be honest. I don't.

It seems like, from your comments, that you look down pretty dramatically on those who would not follow the regulative principle of worship. That's why I'm asking these questions. I just want to get a better feel for what's going on in there.

That's a fair response. I appreciate that.

I do think some things are a little overstated about me. I wasn't mincing words, but choosing them carefully concerning unbiblical and non-biblical. If I say something is unbiblical, then I must have a Scripture to point to that prohibits a practice. To say something is non-biblical means that there is no example or precept in Scripture for the practice.

Also, I think you might be unfairly mischaracterizing me. I am not looking down (which would be arrogant) on anyone. I think the normative principle which is practiced in evangelical churches is incorrect. But I don't think I am a better Christian than them because of the regulative principle. What makes me to differ?

If indeed I am correct and my other brethren are incorrect then what makes me to differ is the grace of God--I have nothing to boast about.

I do not think the Regulative Principle tends to legalism any more than following God's precepts tends or leads to legalism. To me, the Regulative Principle is about obeying God, not leaning on my own understanding, in all my way acknoweldging Him, et.

The Regulative Principle does not tell me how to worship God my brother, the Scripture does. The Regulative Principle is a theological term useful for explaining the subject.

Hope that helps,
-five

 

[Ronnie T]

Here's the revealed key to worshiping God.

John 4:21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."