Jerusalem the capital of Israel?

[NE GA Pappy]

if there were no individual redemption, then why did God demand individual sacrifice?

Surely you aren't saying that if one was condemned the entire nation was condemned? During the time of Ahab and Jezebel, when there were 700 prophet who hadn't worshipped Baal, did they not receive redemption when they died because of the sins of the nation?

Sure there was individual redemption offered thru the sacrafices God demanded, or why would anyone do them? If one failed to follow thru, they all were cursed? Nah.

That would be like saying on the night of Passover, if one jewish father failed to sacrifice and paint the door posts, all the jewish first born would die.

We are forgiven and redeemed as individuals, and we always have been. It is not a corporate insurance policy.

 

[hobbs27]

Hebrews 10:1-4
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Lev 5:6 and he must bring his penalty for guilt to the Lord for his sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, whether a female sheep or a female goat, for a sin offering. So the priest will make atonement on his behalf for his sin

please define atonement, if not forgiveness.

I agree, the sacrifice was to be made at least yearly, and was a temporary covering, up it was a method for sins to be forgiven and make the person clean before God

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Num 15:27-28 15:27 “‘If any person sins unintentionally, then he must bring a yearling female goat for a purification offering. 28 And the priest must make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally – when he sins unintentionally before the Lord – to make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

and he will be forgiven?????? sounds like a complete forgiveness for the sins he had committed. If he died in this state, he was forgiven and he went to Abrahams bossum upon his death, waiting for Jesus to come and take back the keys (authority over)death, hades, and the grave. This is the authority that Adam surrendered to satan in the garden of Eden, when he believed the lie of the serpent, rather than the truth that God spoke directly to him.

This is one reason the Bible says in Matt 28, " 8 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. "

 

[hobbs27]

Pappy.... They did not have a good enough sacrifice to make them pure. They did have a temporary atonement , but until God sent His only begotten Son which was the unblemished lamb, as a sacrifice, eternal life was not known

Praise be to God and His Son, that the old covenant has vanished and the New is established that by His marvelous grace through our faith, we may live forever.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Hobbs, you talk as if eternal life only began with Christ's death. Man has had eternal life since he was first created in the garden of Eden. The question is where would he spend eternity after his short stint here on earth.

I would argue that anyone who held the sacrifices and rituals that were given to Moses, and passed down to the jews, would be judged righteous at their death. If not, the Abraham,Issac,Jacob,Elijah,David and a list of millions of others would have never found salvation because they were living before Jesus was crucified.

Yes, now we have a more perfect way, but don't you think the law that God gave Moses was a way to salvation for those that followed it? Or was it just a game God was playing with mankind for a few centuries just to pass time until He decided it was time for Jesus to appear?

 

[hobbs27]

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."


Also John 3:16 Says we don't all have eternal life, only those that believe in Christ, others perish.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


There's a reason Lazarus was going to be raised in the last day. He had died under the old covenant and gone to Hades... Separated from God by sin, either his or from Adam. It took the atonement of Christ to end Hades, to raise the dead, and gather His church together in one body.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

you are confusing pre Christ, post Christ.

I asked did the patriarchs have salvation or not? Or at least that is what I tried to ask.

Did the sacrifices ordered by God result in forgiveness of sins or not? I am not worried about the temporary or permanentcy of this question right now. Did they get forgiveness?

 

[hobbs27]

you are confusing pre Christ, post Christ.

I asked did the patriarchs have salvation or not? Or at least that is what I tried to ask.

Did the sacrifices ordered by God result in forgiveness of sins or not? I am not worried about the temporary or permanentcy of this question right now. Did they get forgiveness?

Not the complete remission of sins. They got forgiveness but they still had imputed sin.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Not the complete remission of sins. They got forgiveness but they still had imputed sin.

Salvation, or no salvation?

 

[hobbs27]

Salvation, or no salvation?

Pappy... They had no salvation. They had to await the atonement of Christ and to hear His voice, before they could receive eternal life.

If they had salvation without the atonement of Christ in your opinion, why did Christ even have to become a sacrifice?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Pappy... They had no salvation. They had to await the atonement of Christ and to hear His voice, before they could receive eternal life.

If they had salvation without the atonement of Christ in your opinion, why did Christ even have to become a sacrifice?

you are delusional

 

[hobbs27]

you are delusional

Ive provided a lot of Bible, you've been silent on.

Is it your belief that the blood of bulls and goats was sufficient ?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Ive provided a lot of Bible, you've been silent on.

Is it your belief that the blood of bulls and goats was sufficient ?

I belief that God devised a system where by man was justified and forgiven for the sins that were covered by the sacrifice offered.

Was the sacrifice perfect? NO. Was the sacrifice a permanent solution? no. Was it sufficient to cover the sins that it was offered? yes.

We have been give a more perfect system than they had offered. A permanent fix for a permanent problem. But to think that God somehow offered forgiveness and then rejected His forgiveness for those sins is just unbelievable. This was their means to salvation. Faith in the system laid out by God for forgiveness of their sins.

Christ came to be a perfect sacrifice to cover mankinds sins. He was the end all of all sacrifices. He completed the need for any more sacrifices.

I don't understand your thought process at all on eternal life. Each and everyone of us have eternal life. The question is where will you spend eternity. It seems to be that you believe that if you are not saved when you die, you go to somewhere to die again, and are no more.

Is that what you are trying to convey?

 

[hobbs27]

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So at the time Jesus was doing His earthly ministry, no man had been to heaven... The dead were dead and without consciousness according to the scriptures... Not alive, but dead, awaiting to be raised in the last day as Martha made clear.

Sin kept them separated from the Father, had any old testament sacrifice purified them of sin, they could have been with the father in heaven.

John 3:16 says to obtain eternal life we must have faith in Christ, otherwise we perish.... This is a clear text that not everyone has eternal life.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

well, so much for getting a straight answer from you.

the reason no one was in heaven was because until Jesus decended into Hades, satan held the keys to death, hades and the grave. Jesus went and reclaimed that authority to rule over death,hades and the grave.

Until Jesus did this, people dwelt in a place called Abrahams bossum. Living there until they were set free when Jesus came back to life. Several old testament saints and prophet were seen walking about Jerusalem at that time.

I know... You don't believe that, but at a minimum you could stop beating around the bush and say what you believe happens to people who die without salvation

 

[hobbs27]

well, so much for getting a straight answer from you.

the reason no one was in heaven was because until Jesus decended into Hades, satan held the keys to death, hades and the grave. Jesus went and reclaimed that authority to rule over death,hades and the grave.

Until Jesus did this, people dwelt in a place called Abrahams bossum. Living there until they were set free when Jesus came back to life. Several old testament saints and prophet were seen walking about Jerusalem at that time.

I know... You don't believe that, but at a minimum you could stop beating around the bush and say what you believe happens to people who die without salvation

Actually, I believe most of what you said. I don't think Abraham's bosom is Hades, but I'm with you that old covenant folks were dead in Hades or the grave, until Jesus came and made atonement for them.

As for the unsaved dead... I thought I answered that when I referred to John 3:16. Let me make it clearer.
Those without faith never obtained eternal life and perish upon death per John 3:16

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Those without faith never obtained eternal life and perish upon death per John 3:16

so you basically believe if you are not saved, when you die, you are just dead. No afterlife, no punishment, no knowledge of anything because you are just laying in that grave forever?

 

[hobbs27]

so you basically believe if you are not saved, when you die, you are just dead. No afterlife, no punishment, no knowledge of anything because you are just laying in that grave forever?

per John 3:16 yes.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

so what do you do with the scripture that talks about everlasting punishment?

Matt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

Mark 9:43-48 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

Rev 20:12- 15 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.gs which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

there is a multitude of scripture that teaches an eternal punishment after death and rejection of Christ.

You don't just lay in the ground, never to be remember anymore for eternity. Just as in this life, there are everlasting consequences for decisions we make.