Leaders: Myth and Reality

[Tight Lines]

We don't have a good place to post this, but thought some others might enjoy this book. I just finished reading Leaders: Myth and Reality, after spending a couple of hours with Jeff Eggers (one of the co-authors) who was presenting to our team on leadership.

Jeff is a Navy SEAL of 20 years, and a Naval Academy graduate. Pretty interesting fellow in his own right.

If you've ever read Plutarch's Lives this is somewhat of a modern take on it, and explores the paradigms of leadership, including the conventional wisdom that a leader is the sole reason for a particular outcome. It explores the strengths and weaknesses of several leaders, as well as the context surrounding their particular situations.

In our in-person discussion, a leader not included in the book, Steve Jobs, was one of the topics of discussion. How could such an abrasive, seemingly egocentric human have created Apple, Next, and Pixar and been revered while doing it? The book helps answer that through context and evolution.

It's a long read, over 400 pages, and I enjoyed it. It makes me want to go back and re-read Lives which I read in high school. There are also several of the leaders included in the book that I want to read about further.

If you choose to read it, would be interested in your thoughts here.

 

[SarahFair]

Does it go into the psychological/sociological side of it, ie. making the connection that most leaders have huge egos?

I've heard it explained that to present yourself as a leader of a group, one usually has an above average ego, because you are essentially saying, "I know what's best, I know the answers, I know the solutions" (ie. Someone who decides to run for president)

But to make it successfully these people also have varying degrees of charming/manipulative personality traits and are able to get away with more negative traits, Ie. sour dispositions (maybe a Steve Jobs) or carry out heinous crimes (cult leaders like Manson and Jim Jones), and people still faun all over them

 

[Tight Lines]

Does it go into the psychological/sociological side of it, ie. making the connection that most leaders have huge egos?

I've heard it explained that to present yourself as a leader of a group, one usually has an above average ego, because you are essentially saying, "I know what's best, I know the answers, I know the solutions" (ie. Someone who decides to run for president)

But to make it successfully these people also have varying degrees of charming/manipulative personality traits and are able to get away with more negative traits, Ie. sour dispositions (maybe a Steve Jobs) or carry out heinous crimes (cult leaders like Manson and Jim Jones), and people still faun all over them

Good question. I don't want to spoil the book for anyone, because the last chapter really ties it all together.

In short, it does touch on some of those topics including personality, context, and to a certain extent the psychological side of things.

The book covers a number of leaders, 13 to be exact, and asks "what kind of leader was he/she" whereas Plutarch's Lives asks more "what type of a person was he/she?"

Some of the leaders in the book were certainly charismatic, while others were reclusive and still had an outsized impact in their particular situations.

What I enjoyed most about the book, aside from the historical views of certain leaders, was that it tries to look at the entire picture of a leader and leadership vs. your typical book on leadership that lays out attributes of leaders that we should emulate or evolve in ourselves.

I'm reading a second book on leadership now, one of three that I'm reading in preparation for a class we teach in our firm for emerging leaders, of which I am one of the teachers. All three are different, and while I've only read the first one, Leaders, as I've started the second I can say that Leaders definitely provided context for the next two.

If you choose to read it, I'd be interested in your perspective. Leadership is messy and complicated, and situational. By that I mean that Steve Jobs was the perfect CEO for Apple and Pixar, but would have never worked at say GE or GM.

 

[Tight Lines]

With that said, it is not a psychological profile of leaders...but I think it answers some of the questions you posed...

 

[Tight Lines]

Does it go into the psychological/sociological side of it, ie. making the connection that most leaders have huge egos?

I've heard it explained that to present yourself as a leader of a group, one usually has an above average ego, because you are essentially saying, "I know what's best, I know the answers, I know the solutions" (ie. Someone who decides to run for president)

But to make it successfully these people also have varying degrees of charming/manipulative personality traits and are able to get away with more negative traits, Ie. sour dispositions (maybe a Steve Jobs) or carry out heinous crimes (cult leaders like Manson and Jim Jones), and people still faun all over them

By the way, one of the leaders in the book profiled is Harriet Tubman. When you read about her in the book, you get a sense of an almost egoless determination and shear will that was insurmountable. She didn't want to be a leader per se, but her actions, purpose, and example thrust her into a leadership role. Said another way, in some ways she was elevated by those she led into leadership. I'm seriously paraphrasing of course...that's just one of the 13 profiles in the book...

 

[Ruger#3]

I was about to say if the book paints with as broad a brush as
expressed by Sarah it’s a wasted read. There’s a huge difference in confidence and ego. General Lee said it best, “A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others. I tremble for my country when I hear of confidence expressed in me.”

 

[Tight Lines]

I was about to say if the book paints with as broad a brush as
expressed by Sarah it’s a wasted read. There’s a huge difference in confidence and ego. General Lee said it best, “A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others. I tremble for my country when I hear of confidence expressed in me.”

I'd say it's a fairly factual book without a lot of conjecture. Certainly doesn't go into a lot of the psychology behind the leaders. Which is fine, the authors were all military leaders, and deeply curious about how leaders are elevated to that position, and the context surrounding it. They go back to Zheng He and Martin Luther all the way up to the modern day with Einstein and Bernstein, among others. Lee is the first chapter. He is the only leader not in a "pair" hence the 13 leaders profiled.

 

[sinclair1]

I teach a course in developing your profile at work. It try’s to help distinguish who you are and how to communicate with people in the opposite profiles as well as same profiles.
It’s mostly hockey but after I took the course admittedly, it nailed me.
It is good at predicting who can lead people and take care of business vs. who can persuade people that don’t have to listen.

I study people as a hobby so being chosen by the corp development team to teach the course was cool.

Pretty much every company I have worked for has a book they want the management team to read.

I will have to go to the garage to see the book as I haven’t read it

 

[Tight Lines]

I teach a course in developing your profile at work. It try’s to help distinguish who you are and how to communicate with people in the opposite profiles as well as same profiles.
It’s mostly hockey but after I took the course admittedly, it nailed me.
It is good at predicting who can lead people and take care of business vs. who can persuade people that don’t have to listen.

I study people as a hobby so being chosen by the corp development team to teach the course was cool.

Pretty much every company I have worked for has a book they want the management team to read.

I will have to go to the garage to see the book as I haven’t read it

Probably the DISC or 5 Dimensions. We use the 5 Dimensions.

We don't have to read these books, this is on my own...written by guest speakers we have...Eggers was one, Ryan Hawk is one, and another guy who climbed Everest and wrote a book on being vulnerable. That one would go over well in here!

 

[sinclair1]

Probably the DISC or 5 Dimensions. We use the 5 Dimensions.

We don't have to read these books, this is on my own...written by guest speakers we have...Eggers was one, Ryan Hawk is one, and another guy who climbed Everest and wrote a book on being vulnerable. That one would go over well in here!

I have done the DISC profiling and read the ideal team player. Actually I didn’t read it, I skimmed it.

 

[sinclair1]

I believe the book my job in Atlanta wanted you to read was Extreme Ownership by a seal team member.

 

[Tight Lines]

I believe the book my job in Atlanta wanted you to read was Extreme Ownership by a seal team member.

Never heard of it. I find the military leaders who have since retired and reflect on what they learned fascinating...got to meet Schwarzkopf back in '92 after the first Desert Storm...had lunch with him in a small group and he talked about the logistics required to move everything overseas and the speed and complexity with which they completed it...pretty amazing mobilization. He struck me as a good, decisive leader...

 

[Ruger#3]

I believe the book my job in Atlanta wanted you to read was Extreme Ownership by a seal team member.

Seems to be the trend these days, a favorite exseal team gig. I attended a conference in San Diego where the speaker was a exseal team member and we were provided his leadership book.

 

[oldfella1962]

I believe the book my job in Atlanta wanted you to read was Extreme Ownership by a seal team member.

Jocko Willink - yes that dude is AWESOME! He has an insane work ethic and drive. He has plenty of you tube videos. He wasn't just a SEAL team member, he was an officer/team leader. He had a big role in Fallujah (the second battle I think). He did a full career in the Navy.

 

[DAVE]

Wonder why with all the popular leadership books, seminars and leadership courses available there are so few able to lead? Could it be leaders are natural born and can't be taught? The Pied Piper was a strong leader just like a lot of Military Leaders but it wasn't always good for the ones being lead.

 

[Ruger#3]

Jocko Willink - yes that dude is AWESOME! He has an insane work ethic and drive. He has plenty of you tube videos. He wasn't just a SEAL team member, he was an officer/team leader. He had a big role in Fallujah (the second battle I think). He did a full career in the Navy.

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And that makes him knowledgeable about being a corporate executive how?

 

[Toliver]

And that makes him knowledgeable about being a corporate executive how?

A Corporate executive isn't necessarily a leader. Many narcissists and people with anti social personality disorder are Corporate executives. They're just bosses who maybe know the job and make the company money but they're not necessarily effective leaders.

 

[Ruger#3]

A Corporate executive isn't necessarily a leader. Many narcissists and people with anti social personality disorder are Corporate executives. They're just bosses who maybe know the job and make the company money but they're not necessarily effective leaders.

You touch on the point I’m referencing. Military leaders work with a “use or lose“ budget. They’ll shoot up ammo, burn gas to keep the budget level the same the following year. Executives are responsible to share holders to make a profit. The strategic objectives differ greatly. Military leadership schools do provide best practices for interfacing with people, team building. In short, an effective corporate executive is a good leader as they get the team working towards the corporate goals. Those that are poor team leaders will face high turnover and increased costs. The seal team member that spoke at our conference was teaching leadership 101 having never faced the constraints of a corporate board or share holders.

 

[Tight Lines]

You touch on the point I’m referencing. Military leaders work with a “use or lose“ budget. They’ll shoot up ammo, burn gas to keep the budget level the same the following year. Executives are responsible to share holders to make a profit. The strategic objectives differ greatly. Military leadership schools do provide best practices for interfacing with people, team building. In short, an effective corporate executive is a good leader as they get the team working towards the corporate goals. Those that are poor team leaders will face high turnover and increased costs. The seal team member that spoke at our conference was teaching leadership 101 having never faced the constraints of a corporate board or share holders.

Within the context of this thread and the book, the authors were all military leaders, but also leaders after retirement from the military in the corporate world. This particular book is not about fiscal responsibility to a corporation, but rather a study of all types of leaders. With that said, two of the best leaders I've ever worked under were both Marines, and a third leader was in the Navy during Vietnam. I can't help but think lessons learned there assisted their rise through the corporate world. Or maybe they were leaders when they entered the military and just honed those skills. All three were CEOs, one of PepsiCo.

 

[Ruger#3]

Within the context of this thread and the book, the authors were all military leaders, but also leaders after retirement from the military in the corporate world. This particular book is not about fiscal responsibility to a corporation, but rather a study of all types of leaders. With that said, two of the best leaders I've ever worked under were both Marines, and a third leader was in the Navy during Vietnam. I can't help but think lessons learned there assisted their rise through the corporate world. Or maybe they were leaders when they entered the military and just honed those skills. All three were CEOs, one of PepsiCo.

The lessons absolutely can translate, you have to know the difference and adapt. One of my mentors in the corporate world was a reserve one star. He flew air rescue in Vietnam, had a helicopter shot off his C-130 aerial refueling hose during a pickup mission. Hung with the mission, refueled the other aircraft and helped get the pilot home. My point is if you haven’t
worked in the corporate world your perspective is constrained.