Sam Harris An Atheist Manifesto

[ambush80]

I honestly thought the 2nd half of my long post would get a bit more traction

I'm on it. I'm just thinking about how to word my response in 500 words or less.

 

[JB0704]

I'm on it. I'm just thinking about how to word my response in 500 words or less.

 

[ambush80]

I guess. I believe a better way to put it would be that I know I am happier here than I would be there. Isn't our experience all about perspective anyway? For all the people who have lived their entire life believing in and worshipping a loving God.........did they suffer if they were wrong, or, did they benefit from the belief for whatever comfort it provided? Regardless of what other interpretations may have been. Their perspective was their reality.

The above ^^^ is not a discussion over what is, but more a commentary on the relevance to the individual.

You are happier because your concept of what life is like without God was full of despair. My life with God was quite nice. I had explanations for things that I couldn't explain, Why am I here? What is my purpose? What happens when I die? I also had a friend I could turn to when things were bad and that I could look to for protection when evil was trying to get me. I knew that I would go to Heaven and be with my family and friends forever, maybe even some pets; except for the ones that don't get to go to Heaven but go to the other place. That wasn't so comforting anymore. And the "evil" and the demons and devils, that wasn't so comforting. And the Robotic reality of Heaven, that wasn't so comforting. And the way that miracles defy science, that wasn't comforting. And the fact that I can't prove any of it but have to just believe, that wasn't so comforting. I like a good "Trust Fall" as much as the next guy. But only when there's a person behind me, a real person.

So what's the alternative? It's "not knowing".

I don't know if I have an ultimate purpose. I don't know if my daughter does. I know what she means to me and I know what my life means to me. I don't know if I will see her again after I die but in the event that I don't, how should I relate to her NOW?

I'm glad you brought that up. I have had experiences to the opposite, which I can only believe are chemical to some level, and possibly psychological based on some synapse firing off to some external stimulus. For instance, if I drink Nyquil or tequila I have some of the most insane and god-awful dreams, and wake up with a deep feeling of dread and remorse. It takes hours to shake it........so, I avoid those things knowing the chemical reaction they produce.

Recently, I had such a moment where I woke from a dream where I had a "clarity" that my beliefs were wrong. I thought about each of you......Ambush, Bullet, Walt, 3xb......all the guys I have debated and argued our belief systems with over the years. I considered what y'all had said and how it contrasted with what I believed. I was very sad. For myself. For my kids. For humanity.

It took me a few hours to shake it.

Something I ate, or saw on t.v. (quite possibly I think it was something made me think of the movie Melancholia earlier the previous day) had influenced my dreams in a very realistic sort of way. I refocused my thoughts on why I believe what I believe, and why it makes sense to me.........and the sadness and remorse was gone. I am a believer, for many reasons that have more to do with logical conclusions than chemical reactions.

I do not think my experience is any different than anybody else's. I think my conclusions and perspective are unique. As are yours. As are the Shamans.

Why would you be sad for humanity if everyone became unbelievers (not that there is no God, just that people didn't believe in something they couldn't prove)?

 

[JB0704]

Why would you be sad for humanity if everyone became unbelievers (not that there is no God, just that people didn't believe in something they couldn't prove)?

I wouldn't be sad if they quit believing. I would be sad if there was no God. It would make all the suffering and pain that much more meaningless.

We both have daughters, so we can relate to what a father feels when their baby girl is sad. It tears me apart, and, I generally end up trying to find a way to relieve her sadness. Her sadness hurts me worse than when she gets physically hurt. If there is no design/plan/purpose then those tears, that pain, is miniscule and meaningless.......just another assembly of stardust doing what stardust does. That wouldn't make me love her any less, but, it would make me incredibly mad at the cosmos for arranging pain and suffering for no other reason than to be wiped away by the next arrangement.

Im sure you saw the movie Melancholia. It was an absolutely awful and ridiculous movie. However, there is one sentence in there that kills me (and I think it was the trigger for my crazy dream)......."we are the only ones, and it won't be for long." The crazy girl knew that there was no other life in the universe, and that all the life that existed was about to be wiped out by a random circumstance. Everything that ever happened before that moment would be rendered meaningless on a grand scale. That makes me sad.

So, if I am "tricking" my brain in order to find purpose and meaning, so be it. I am happier here, I find purpose here, and I am comfortable here. That perception is my reality, and I see no harm in it.

That being said, I do believe in God, now more than ever, as a result of my dream. There are def more nuances to my beliefs that I won't discuss here, but, I can't reason existence without a creator. It makes no sense to me.

 

[ambush80]

I wouldn't be sad if they quit believing. I would be sad if there was no God. It would make all the suffering and pain that much more meaningless.

We both have daughters, so we can relate to what a father feels when their baby girl is sad. It tears me apart, and, I generally end up trying to find a way to relieve her sadness. Her sadness hurts me worse than when she gets physically hurt. If there is no design/plan/purpose then those tears, that pain, is miniscule and meaningless.......just another assembly of stardust doing what stardust does. That wouldn't make me love her any less, but, it would make me incredibly mad at the cosmos for arranging pain and suffering for no other reason than to be wiped away by the next arrangement.

Im sure you saw the movie Melancholia. It was an absolutely awful and ridiculous movie. However, there is one sentence in there that kills me (and I think it was the trigger for my crazy dream)......."we are the only ones, and it won't be for long." The crazy girl knew that there was no other life in the universe, and that all the life that existed was about to be wiped out by a random circumstance. Everything that ever happened before that moment would be rendered meaningless on a grand scale. That makes me sad.

So, if I am "tricking" my brain in order to find purpose and meaning, so be it. I am happier here, I find purpose here, and I am comfortable here. That perception is my reality, and I see no harm in it.

That being said, I do believe in God, now more than ever, as a result of my dream. There are def more nuances to my beliefs that I won't discuss here, but, I can't reason existence without a creator. It makes no sense to me.

Or it would mean that the pain and suffering is part of a plan. It could be the plan of a mischievous, sadistic God. If you look at how the world is, purely objectively, it seems to me that God is more likely mischievous, possibly belligerent or simply uninvolved. I'm sure you recognize what a mental loopdey loop is involved in calling God just, kind and loving considering reality or trusting that He has a plan that we can't fathom. Are you sure that that proposition is comforting?

I've had two deaths in the family recently and I saw first hand how faith was able to comfort people. I also saw how, in myself and other non-believers in my family, we found comfort.

There's a difference between saying "How lucky am I that God made me be born with all my limbs" as opposed to saying "How lucky am I that I was born with all my limbs". I think sometimes atheism is a bit of an extravagance. I wonder if I were born in a trash heap in Bangladesh if it would be easy to say "Oh well, just bad luck of the draw" or I would need to, as a method of self preservation, say "God has a plan for this suck and I will be rewarded in the next life". Most of the time I recognize "It could be worse.....much, much worse".

 

[JB0704]

Or it would mean that the pain and suffering is part of a plan. It could be the plan of a mischievous, sadistic God. If you look at how the world is, purely objectively, it seems to me that God is more likely mischievous, possibly belligerent or simply uninvolved. I'm sure you recognize what a mental loopdey loop is involved in calling God just, kind and loving considering reality or trusting that He has a plan that we can't fathom. Are you sure that that proposition is comforting?

We have different views of creation. An objective view of existence reveals something other than a sadistic creator to me. It sometimes reveals sadistic creation. We can get into a debate where I throw out the warm fuzzies and you through out the uglies, and neither would win. I still would find it more comforting than the stardust proposition. That is chaos to me.

I've had two deaths in the family recently and I saw first hand how faith was able to comfort people. I also saw how, in myself and other non-believers in my family, we found comfort.

You know that I believe atheists can find comfort and love their friends n family. I am glad for it, and I am sure you have found a way to ground yourself in the universe you perceive.

I went through a stretch several years ago where I had several people close to me die. Two very close friends (both way too young), a friend's baby, and several acquiantences (also all way too young). It was crazy, but we were constantly at funerals. There was the given "why God" questions in all circumstances. In most cases it was the fault of the deceased. In a few it was just "natures" cruelty.

The one that impressed me the most was the friend who lost his infant daughter to natural causes. They taught me what faith looks like, and, without faith I don't think they would have survived the situation. I don't care if they are 100% wrong, I will never believe it is a negative for them.

There's a difference between saying "How lucky am I that God made me be born with all my limbs" as opposed to saying "How lucky am I that I was born with all my limbs". I think sometimes atheism is a bit of an extravagance. I wonder if I were born in a trash heap in Bangladesh if it would be easy to say "Oh well, just bad luck of the draw" or I would need to, as a method of self preservation, say "God has a plan for this suck and I will be rewarded in the next life". Most of the time I recognize "It could be worse.....much, much worse".

Isn't it a general rule that folks in bad situations look for faith as a rescue? It lends credence to atheism being an extravagance. Some people don't "need" god. Some do in order to keep sanity. I am def the latter.

 

[660griz]

When someone dies too young of "natural' causes, I am upset at religion for setting back research that could have saved their life.

 

[ambush80]

We have different views of creation. An objective view of existence reveals something other than a sadistic creator to me. It sometimes reveals sadistic creation. We can get into a debate where I throw out the warm fuzzies and you through out the uglies, and neither would win. I still would find it more comforting than the stardust proposition. That is chaos to me.



You know that I believe atheists can find comfort and love their friends n family. I am glad for it, and I am sure you have found a way to ground yourself in the universe you perceive.

I went through a stretch several years ago where I had several people close to me die. Two very close friends (both way too young), a friend's baby, and several acquiantences (also all way too young). It was crazy, but we were constantly at funerals. There was the given "why God" questions in all circumstances. In most cases it was the fault of the deceased. In a few it was just "natures" cruelty.

The one that impressed me the most was the friend who lost his infant daughter to natural causes. They taught me what faith looks like, and, without faith I don't think they would have survived the situation. I don't care if they are 100% wrong, I will never believe it is a negative for them.



Isn't it a general rule that folks in bad situations look for faith as a rescue? It lends credence to atheism being an extravagance. Some people don't "need" god. Some do in order to keep sanity. I am def the latter.

I wouldn't bring out all the uglies as a proof of chaos. A stronger proof of the chaos is the beauties and the uglies combined. The rain falling on the just and unjust really says it all. Assuming agency seems to complicate it for me. YMMV.

I would never have told anyone grieving that what they believe is unproved. For the most part I see peoples' belief in God as net good but that's mostly because most of the believers I know are progressive, liberal, secular believers. When I visit my uneducated, country friends and family in the sticks, or even in Snellville and Johns Creek I see how their belief can twist their thinking in truly harmful directions and because their beliefs are faith based, it's impossible to discuss things rationally. I see the superstition and divisiveness in strong ways.

If I had been born in a trash heap in Bangladesh and someone told me that line from Melancholia, I don't know how I would take it. Maybe I would say "Lie to me".

 

[ambush80]

When someone dies too young of "natural' causes, I am upset at religion for setting back research that could have saved their life.

That is a strong argument. Seems to me like one of the last gripes I have with Christianity.

 

[bullethead]

It's funny tjhough, you never actually completely walk away. At the risk of being shunned, I have to admit that every once in while the thought pops into my head -
"Boy if God shows up tomorrow I'm screwed for the stuff I've said on here".

I ease myself by saying if I am wrong, and everything is predestined, I am doing exactly as I am supposed to do.
If I am wrong and everything is not predestined then I
had hoped my intentions to find this God would have not taken me on this current path.
If I am wrong and everyone else is also wrong, I'll be in good company.
If I am right, I'll never know.

 

[ambush80]

I ease myself by saying if I am wrong, and everything is predestined, I am doing exactly as I am supposed to do.
If I am wrong and everything is not predestined then I
had hoped my intentions to find this God would have not taken me on this current path.
If I am wrong and everyone else is also wrong, I'll be in good company.
If I am right, I'll never know.

Without the religion, do you all think your life would change if you believed in God? I'm not so sure mine would, only because I wouldn't make Her in a religious mold. Without thinking that God revealed Herself in some weird book, I would assume that Her ways were completely mysterious. The net result would be the same as not believing in Her at all.

I wonder how Ol' Pnome is getting along with his new deism.

 

[bullethead]

Without the religion, do you all think your life would change if you believed in God? I'm not so sure mine would, only because I wouldn't make Her in a religious mold. Without thinking that God revealed Herself in some weird book, I would assume that Her ways were completely mysterious. The net result would be the same as not believing in Her at all.

I wonder how Ol' Pnome is getting along with his new deism.

Doubtful mine would have changed either.
It was actually a nice relationship for the time I had totally given up on organized religion(church and bible) and decided that I did not need a middle man(pastor or priest) for me to have a relationship with a god
99.9% of that time(about 10 years) my prayers consisted of thanks instead of requests. Requests were only out of concern for the health and well being of others. Then prayers weaned down to a quick thanks for being in the woods, the opportunity to spend that time with family and friends, and if I was lucky enough to get a shot at an animal to Please let it
be on target and result in a quick kill. Not so that I look all macho sniper to my buddies, but more so because I felt that if I squeeze the trigger or release the arrow I owe it to the animal to make it as quick as possible.
In fact, and I don't know why, maybe hoping some spirit of the hunt is listening...I still say my piece before every hunt. Almost a feeling of being a part of the process in nature. Wierd. Idk. Afterwards I give thanks to the animal for giving up its life so that it helps ours go on.
It doesn't seem religious,it is more a sense of being a part of nature with possibly some (like walt touched on) leftover remnant of religious indoctrination spilling over into the giving thanks to the nature side only because that was how I was used to trying to communicate to something that I felt existed.

 

[JB0704]

Wish pnome would post a follow up. Had to be hard for him to come clean on here.

 

[JB0704]

When someone dies too young of "natural' causes, I am upset at religion for setting back research that could have saved their life.

Think that could be a whole 'nuther thread.......I think the only religious hindrance to medical advancement, beyond the fringe elements that deny medicine, is the act of taking a life to save a life. That really ought present a moral dilemma to both the believer and non-believer.

 

[JB0704]

For the most part I see peoples' belief in God as net good but that's mostly because most of the believers I know are progressive, liberal, secular believers. When I visit my uneducated, country friends and family in the sticks, or even in Snellville and Johns Creek I see how their belief can twist their thinking in truly harmful directions and because their beliefs are faith based, it's impossible to discuss things rationally. I see the superstition and divisiveness in strong ways.

I am assuming you are looking at it from a theological perspective and not a political one. I am curious though, about the Johns Creek believers.......how is their faith harmful? What criteria establishes one's position as a believer as being progressive? Any thought which builds on the prior, or expands, can also be progressive, yet adhere to what they believe to be a strict view of doctrine. For instance, Calvinism, would be progressive at some point in history, yet it is a very rigid view of Biblical doctrines.

If I had been born in a trash heap in Bangladesh and someone told me that line from Melancholia, I don't know how I would take it. Maybe I would say "Lie to me".

No doubt that religion thrives where people find themselves in need. Many different ways to look at it.

 

[660griz]

Think that could be a whole 'nuther thread.......I think the only religious hindrance to medical advancement, beyond the fringe elements that deny medicine, is the act of taking a life to save a life. That really ought present a moral dilemma to both the believer and non-believer.

Only to those that believe life begins at conception. I don't.
What about, take a life to save millions?

 

[ambush80]

Wish pnome would post a follow up. Had to be hard for him to come clean on here.

I could just as easily believe in God or not. There's the same amount of evidence either way. "Why don't you?" can be answered by "Why should I?". The default position for me is the negative.

 

[JB0704]

Only to those that believe life begins at conception. I don't.

No doubt influenced by your worldview, as is my opinion. Regardless, the point remains, no matter where life begins. Determining to kill a person to study them in order to possibly save future people is a moral dilemma. I would hope any of us agree.........or, to put yourself in my shoes, consider where you think life begins. Is it ok to kill that person at that point for science?

What about, take a life to save millions?

Are you guilty of murder when you do so? Or are you acting in defense of millions?

Like I said, it's prolly best for a whole new thread.

 

[660griz]

No doubt influenced by your worldview, as is my opinion.

I guess you could say that if worldview includes science and definition of mammal.

Regardless, the point remains, no matter where life begins. Determining to kill a person to study them in order to possibly save future people is a moral dilemma.

Yes it is, but if it is technically not a person, it is not a moral dilemma.

I would hope any of us agree.........or, to put yourself in my shoes, consider where you think life begins. Is it ok to kill that person at that point for science?

If that person is not breathing, has no hair, and no heartbeat, and no brain, then yes. Especially if that 'person' has been grown in a test tube for the sole purpose of research.

Are you guilty of murder when you do so?

No more than using mice is animal abuse

Like I said, it's prolly best for a whole new thread.

No need. I think we have covered it all. Sorry for the derail.

 

[JB0704]

I guess you could say that if worldview includes science and definition of mammal.

Does science include listening for a heartbeat? Im a little lost as to how any discussion as to when life begins can be considered unscientific? Even "conception" must be defined scientifically.

Yes it is, but if it is technically not a person, it is not a moral dilemma.

Agreed, but, this is limited by the statement above.

If that person is not breathing, has no hair, and no heartbeat, and no brain, then yes. Especially if that 'person' has been grown in a test tube for the sole purpose of research.

I do not see a difference between a test tube person and another person. A person is a person. We get back to the above (what is a person).

No more than using mice is animal abuse

I think you miss my point. If you and I agreed that the thing was a person, I think we would also agree that killing it in the name of science is still murder.

No need. I think we have covered it all. Sorry for the derail.