The great men of the earth.

[gordon 2]

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

1.What does "the great men of the earth" mean in the context here which is from Chapter 18 Revelations? Who might be such men?

2. What are the sorceries by which they were/are deceived?


And does this in Revelations point to the "bewitched men"?

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun: and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly ... Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains and the flesh of mighty men, ....

21... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Madman]

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

1.What does "the great men of the earth" mean in the context here which is from Chapter 18 Revelations? Who might be such men?

2. What are the sorceries by which they were/are deceived?


And does this in Revelations point to the "bewitched men"?

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun: and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly ... Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains and the flesh of mighty men, ....

21... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It is all apostolic language, the same language that is used in Isaiah and Jeremiah.

 

[gordon 2]

It is all apostolic language, the same language that is used in Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Right. Do you mean apocalyptic language, as in the language of prophecy? And if so does it suggest that knowing who are "the great men of the earth" and " the sorceries" from the bible text ( Revelations) itself is futile? Yet it was written to communicate fact?

 

[Madman]

Yes apocalyptic. John was speaking to the Church of his day, a warning and a revelation. The Bible was written for us but not to us.

 

[gordon 2]

Yes apocalyptic. John was speaking to the Church of his day, a warning and a revelation. The Bible was written for us but not to us.

If indeed the case as you indicate that Revelations was written not to us and rather the Church of John's day, what was John communicating to the Church of his day, with his apocalyptic terminology and narrative? What were they getting or spiritually interpreting from it?

Did they know what " the great men of the earth" meant exactly and what "the sorceries" were exactly? And can we phantom what these terms would mean if applied to our times? I assume that as they were written for us, we surely can grasp some of the meanings of these ancient terms communicated to the Church (the saints) of ancient time?

 

[Madman]

The terminology is the same as in other parts Of Scripture. Stars falling, the lady, the dragon, etc. letters to the seven churches.

 

[gordon 2]

The terminology is the same as in other parts Of Scripture. Stars falling, the lady, the dragon, etc. letters to the seven churches.

Hummm. Right. Do you hold that scripture interprets itself? Are you saying that the stars falling, the lady, the dragon...are to be understood as to meaning definites and specifics that were understood from the Old Testament? Or the Old Testament explain the New?

I would agree with you that most of the New Testament has the verbiage of the Old. The Sermon on the Mount for example is basically from Psalm 37. Where is the context so we can get to specific meaning in Revelations? Revelations or the Old Testament?

Lets say for discussion that in the Old Testament prophetic language is motivated by the human need for security and safety. It is about the security of borders and the security of peoples from their tendency to revert periodically from the curse of raiding cultures which is at some point in time your people will raid and be raiders and at another point in time you will be raided. When we are raided it is because God is culling the evil in us. When we raid He is with us and making us fat and many. In other words it is better to raid than to be raided.

In the New Testament man's curse is not that he is sociologically cursed, rather this curse is transferred almost exclusively as a spiritual curse. The meanings in Apocalyptical narrative that once served in the context of a broader social narratives regards spirituality and now applied to the individual and the individual's spiritual dynamic. Therefore terminology ( meanings ) are now abstracted from the need of physical security ( Land of Milk and Honey) to spiritual security ( The kingdom within, of the heart, or in "your mists.)

Revelations equally has its root in a concern for security. As was the concerns expressed in the texts of the Old Testament prophets, which were concerns for the survival of a people identifiable from another people, the concern in Revelations is spiritual security and so individual salvation. And so the context for the terms in Revelations is the bewitched social spirituality of the old testament, and so terms such as women, stars, the great men of the earth term which have their origins in the Old Testament are used for new individual spirituality.

Using the language of Old Testament prophecy to describe the insecurity of a people in a world of raid or be raided is now given to the faithful as individuals. And so in Christ we are immune to the loss of security from possible raids on our lands and peoples unless we a bewitched by a deliberate return to the ancient ways of dealing in the world.

Is Revelations about security? Is it about believing ourselves secure because we are in Christ?

“I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first..." To the church at Ephesus.

Thought we are concerned with security as Christians ours is not for existential insecurity, it is a concern for spiritual security from anything that would rob us of God's love in our lives. And our raider is still that old raider and, even in Christ, still in us.

 

[Madman]

If indeed the case as you indicate that Revelations was written not to us and rather the Church of John's day, what was John communicating to the Church of his day, with his apocalyptic terminology and narrative? What were they getting or spiritually interpreting from it?

Did they know what " the great men of the earth" meant exactly and what "the sorceries" were exactly? And can we phantom what these terms would mean if applied to our times? I assume that as they were written for us, we surely can grasp some of the meanings of these ancient terms communicated to the Church (the saints) of ancient time?

Revelation is the unveiling of the bride. Seven love letters are written to Israel the persecuted bride, represented by the faithful in the seven churches , then the vision of apostate Israel, the prostitute, announced by seven angels with trumpets, depicted by seven plagues that befall her. And finally the bride purified by the bridegroom as he carries her into the new Jerusalem.

 

[gordon 2]

Revelation is the unveiling of the bride. Seven love letters are written to Israel the persecuted bride, represented by the faithful in the seven churches , then the vision of apostate Israel, the prostitute, announced by seven angels with trumpets, depicted by seven plagues that befall her. And finally the bride purified by the bridegroom as he carries her into the new Jerusalem.

Cool. Your brief sketch here would be a great theme for an artist to depict.

Artistic depiction as in, expression by means of the painting of forms or the shaping of forms by means of sculpture.

Yes "apostate Israel". The days they wanted a King apart from God, as other nations had kings to guide them, was when they started to slip slide away... slowly, but surely. Sad. Or so it seems to me.

 

[BanjoPicker]

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

1.What does "the great men of the earth" mean in the context here which is from Chapter 18 Revelations? Who might be such men?

2. What are the sorceries by which they were/are deceived?


And does this in Revelations point to the "bewitched men"?

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun: and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly ... Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains and the flesh of mighty men, ....

21... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Your answers are in the thread Mystical Babylon, Rev. 17:1-18 post #51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56.

 

[gordon 2]

Your answers are in the thread Mystical Babylon, Rev. 17:1-18 post #51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56.

After reading the references you gave me, I still don't get who they are? I get that you see they are spiritual elites possessed by Satin? Am I correct?