Timber management, SMZS and turkeys

[Gaswamp]

We have been discussing the decline of turkeys a lot recently. I know that timber management has been brought up a good bit especially as it related to mature hardwoods. I thought I would share some thoughts and observations especially concerning the SMZ (streamside management zones) and timber cutting.

I hunt a lot of south Georgia river swamp bottoms. It amazes me how marginal or thin logging operations leave SMZ. I notice they even encroach the smz area many times and cut out the mature pine and suitable hardwoods. Then when the rains come and the rivers flood, there is water well outside the smz boundary they leave. Also, after a few years since the SMZ is not very wide and many of the mature shade trees were cut, it grows back into a thick impenetrable mess not conducive to turkeys.

I know a few local individuals that own some small properties that have even experienced loggers crossing onto property boundaries separated by creeks and cutting a few acres. Ive seen them contact the forestry commission, Ga environmental dept, ect and not really get a whole lot done other than small compensation for 100 yr old trees cut and the loggers not being fines from the state.

Im sure many of you have drivin down I-75 south of Perry which was clearcutted and made into a solar farm. No problem with that its the landowner's decision. However, have you ever noticed how thin of a tree corridor around the small creeks, streams was left. You can drive around everywhere and see this.

From what I gather in my very little research OF Georgia BMP (BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICE) allows for encroachment in SMZ and there is sometimes a 25 -50ft buffer requirement depending on water flow category. At any rate Im no environmentalist, but rather a conversationalist. I do not have a problem with clearcuts, but I do when they get into areas that stay wet 50 to 60% of the year.
Turkeys need roost area in and around creeks, sloughs, and bottoms. They need the mast in the fall. Yeas they need diversity but eliminating trees in areas that take lifetimes to grow back don't sit too well with me. Finally, if bigger and wider SMZ corridors are left it makes it easier for turkeys to move around to get to a different area

I'm not a big government guy at least on the national level, but I wonder if some of these laws regarding BMP practices in Georgia need to be re-looked at especially in light of declining populations. Also, better and stiffer enforcement penalties when violations occur.

hadn't written this much in years hope it leads to a good discussion.

 

[RedHills]

A turkey....won't drive any changes in that industry.

 

[Gadget]

A turkey....won't drive any changes in that industry.

Exactly.

That's the main point in alot of these discussions, the wild turkey is very low on the list of priorities in government which extends down into game management as well. Its a revenue source, that's the primary concern of government.

 

[buckpasser]

BMPs are paid no attention brother. GFC “self regulates” their fire breaks for BMP standards and erosion control. I’ve never personally seen a logger be sited for an SMZ infraction.

 

[Tight Lines]

I'm sure that there are some good loggers and forestry guys, even on GON, though in my experience they do not care about anything except getting in, getting out, and getting paid. I find it ironic that people that have forestry degrees could care less about the environment...

 

[turkeykirk]

I don’t live very far from Ga16 and I75 enter change. They are clearing for millions of square feet warehouses on about 2300 acres. Used to hear gobblers there in the Spring. Not a tree left standing. There will never be a turkey roosting there again. Sad.

 

[antharper]

Yes I agree . If you look back at 15-20 year old clear cuts I believe a lot more was left around creeks and water . I think buckpasser is spot on .

 

[kmckinnie]

They just cut the same place again I seen 20 years ago. They cut to the creek this time and ran thru it this time. Last time they made a crossing.

 

[Dupree]

The places that I hunt that still have good turkey populations are areas that have steep ridges and bluffs around creeks, so the majority of the areas have 100-200+ yard wide smz because it would be hard to log with standard equipment.

 

[Gut_Pile]

Have seen standard SMZ's from a previous cut narrowed down to just the trees on the actual creek bank on recent cuts.

Definitely see if more the further south you go where creek banks aren't as defined.

 

[Tight Lines]

I think that the turkey decline is a combination of things...all intertwined as an ecosystem that needs to be adjusted...I'm no biologist, and I grew up where we regularly saw flocks of 100+ birds on a daily basis, morning and night. Still do. You can't kill enough of them in KS to make a dent where I grew up.

• Predators: Predator populations are increasing, including coyote, hog, and raptors. While this is often cited as the primary issue, I believe it is more complicated. Raptors have almost doubled in the US since the 70s. Hawks and owls wreak havoc on turkeys.
• Season & Limits: I believe the season is too long, and the limits too high for the current population in many areas. Hunters disrupt them during critical times for breeding and I'd also suspect some hunters kill more than the limit each season. I know this is unpopular and it is what saved deer in many places.
• Habitat: This is the big one to me. The clear cutting, destroying of the SMZ, and the crop dusting of herbicides and insecticides is brutal. When a timber company clear cuts, then sprays the herbicides and insecticides, there is literally no browse, nothing but small pines, and as a result there is no ground crop or insect life that the turkey can eat. They don't eat red ants and pine needles. Some areas looks like a moonscape. If they cut the hardwoods too, along the stream, you lose roosting, foraging, and security for the turkey.
• Controlled Burning: Forests and crops need to be rotationally burned every 3 years or so. Turkeys love the clear cuts that have been burned, but they won't spend time in the ones that are sprayed as they are devoid of life. We need more controlled burns to open up the undergrowth that occurs due to the clear cutting and along the streams.

We've seen something similar in KS happen to pheasant and quail...and habitat and predators are likely the culprits. The mega farms without hedgerows and transitional areas, and herbicides and pesticides, are hard on nesting and hatchling habitat.

Again, I'm not biologist and I'm basing my opinion on a lot of scouting and reading...

I'd be willing to buy stamps and have tags...honestly I wonder what the compliance is with the check-in system we have today...my son killed 3 deer this year and I didn't put them into the system until way past due...because I could not remember his SSN (he doesn't drive yet). By the time I did it, I thought, if I put them in now will I get fined? Which leads to "no one would know" if I didn't. You used to have your number before you dropped it at the processor or they would not take it. Maybe not an issue, but I do wonder. BTW, I did put them in, and if I get in trouble, that's my fault...

What does @C.Killmaster think about this and what can we do to improve the situation?
-

 

[C.Killmaster]

I think that the turkey decline is a combination of things...all intertwined as an ecosystem that needs to be adjusted...I'm no biologist, and I grew up where we regularly saw flocks of 100+ birds on a daily basis, morning and night. Still do. You can't kill enough of them in KS to make a dent where I grew up.

• Predators: Predator populations are increasing, including coyote, hog, and raptors. While this is often cited as the primary issue, I believe it is more complicated. Raptors have almost doubled in the US since the 70s. Hawks and owls wreak havoc on turkeys.
• Season & Limits: I believe the season is too long, and the limits too high for the current population in many areas. Hunters disrupt them during critical times for breeding and I'd also suspect some hunters kill more than the limit each season. I know this is unpopular and it is what saved deer in many places.
• Habitat: This is the big one to me. The clear cutting, destroying of the SMZ, and the crop dusting of herbicides and insecticides is brutal. When a timber company clear cuts, then sprays the herbicides and insecticides, there is literally no browse, nothing but small pines, and as a result there is no ground crop or insect life that the turkey can eat. They don't eat red ants and pine needles. Some areas looks like a moonscape. If they cut the hardwoods too, along the stream, you lose roosting, foraging, and security for the turkey.
• Controlled Burning: Forests and crops need to be rotationally burned every 3 years or so. Turkeys love the clear cuts that have been burned, but they won't spend time in the ones that are sprayed as they are devoid of life. We need more controlled burns to open up the undergrowth that occurs due to the clear cutting and along the streams.

We've seen something similar in KS happen to pheasant and quail...and habitat and predators are likely the culprits. The mega farms without hedgerows and transitional areas, and herbicides and pesticides, are hard on nesting and hatchling habitat.

Again, I'm not biologist and I'm basing my opinion on a lot of scouting and reading...

I'd be willing to buy stamps and have tags...honestly I wonder what the compliance is with the check-in system we have today...my son killed 3 deer this year and I didn't put them into the system until way past due...because I could not remember his SSN (he doesn't drive yet). By the time I did it, I thought, if I put them in now will I get fined? Which leads to "no one would know" if I didn't. You used to have your number before you dropped it at the processor or they would not take it. Maybe not an issue, but I do wonder. BTW, I did put them in, and if I get in trouble, that's my fault...

What does @C.Killmaster think about this and what can we do to improve the situation?
-

I'm not the turkey expert, but from what I understand the season timing, predators, weather (i.e. wet conditions on young poults), and habitat conditions are all factors that are playing a role in turkey populations.

 

[buckpasser]

I'm not the turkey expert, but from what I understand the season timing, predators, weather (i.e. wet conditions on young poults), and habitat conditions are all factors that are playing a role in turkey populations.

Not disagreeing with you, but wouldn’t scientific logic suggest there was a new factor involved in a decline that started west of us (Arkansas) and moved through the southeast? Hunting season timing is a joke but the others are legitimate. The problem is that they’ve always been present. Why now would there be a larger impact than before without another factor (disease) playing a role?

 

[C.Killmaster]

Not disagreeing with you, but wouldn’t scientific logic suggest there was a new factor involved in a decline that started west of us (Arkansas) and moved through the southeast? Hunting season timing is a joke but the others are legitimate. The problem is that they’ve always been present. Why now would there be a larger impact than before without another factor (disease) playing a role?

From what I gather, and I'm not equipped to argue the finer points, is that season timing issue wasn't really a factor when all other things were good. When you add increased predation, poor nesting habitat, and a couple of bad poult years then the season timing is additive to the other problems. I'm sure disease also plays a role, but I haven't heard of any specific disease events being pointed out. We can adjust season timing with regulation, but you can't address the other issues through regulation. I don't think they are saying season timing is the biggest issue, it's just the one DNR has the ability to address.

Like with most issues in wildlife management and ecology, it's very seldom a single cause and effect. More often than not it's a number of different issues that come together in a perfect storm.

 

[buckpasser]

From what I gather, and I'm not equipped to argue the finer points, is that season timing issue wasn't really a factor when all other things were good. When you add increased predation, poor nesting habitat, and a couple of bad poult years then the season timing is additive to the other problems. I'm sure disease also plays a role, but I haven't heard of any specific disease events being pointed out. We can adjust season timing with regulation, but you can't address the other issues through regulation. I don't think they are saying season timing is the biggest issue, it's just the one DNR has the ability to address.

Like with most issues in wildlife management and ecology, it's very seldom a single cause and effect. More often than not it's a number of different issues that come together in a perfect storm.

You should have gone to the big wigs and told them you had the solution to it all, but it would cost them a pretty penny. After payment, you could have then proposed basically anything. Perhaps “no hunting after 4pm on Wednesdays” and you could have gotten all the Turkey docs glory when the population rebounded (on its own)! Haha!

Of course, that would have required a lot of “fuzzy math” on your part, a bunch of podcasts, a large experimental area (its okay if it fails, just tell them you need an entire state to make it really work), some whacky low T theories of Gobbler infertility, etc to get the required street cred for the state to go for it. There’s always next time I guess.

 

[sea trout]

proposed basically anything. Perhaps “no hunting after 4pm on Wednesdays”

Aw c'mon man!!
Many of us who hunt Thurs mornin like to be in the woods Wed at dusk to hear them gobble from roost!!

 

[crackerdave]

Something I think hurts the turkey population is fire ants eating the hatchlings as they are coming out of the shell.
Anything that nests on the ground is fair game for fire ants,and they are everywhere.

Just drop a piece of meat on the ground.You will be amazed at how fast those little demons will find it.

 

[FLGobstopper]

We have been discussing the decline of turkeys a lot recently. I know that timber management has been brought up a good bit especially as it related to mature hardwoods. I thought I would share some thoughts and observations especially concerning the SMZ (streamside management zones) and timber cutting.

I hunt a lot of south Georgia river swamp bottoms. It amazes me how marginal or thin logging operations leave SMZ. I notice they even encroach the smz area many times and cut out the mature pine and suitable hardwoods. Then when the rains come and the rivers flood, there is water well outside the smz boundary they leave. Also, after a few years since the SMZ is not very wide and many of the mature shade trees were cut, it grows back into a thick impenetrable mess not conducive to turkeys.

I know a few local individuals that own some small properties that have even experienced loggers crossing onto property boundaries separated by creeks and cutting a few acres. Ive seen them contact the forestry commission, Ga environmental dept, ect and not really get a whole lot done other than small compensation for 100 yr old trees cut and the loggers not being fines from the state.

Im sure many of you have drivin down I-75 south of Perry which was clearcutted and made into a solar farm. No problem with that its the landowner's decision. However, have you ever noticed how thin of a tree corridor around the small creeks, streams was left. You can drive around everywhere and see this.

From what I gather in my very little research OF Georgia BMP (BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICE) allows for encroachment in SMZ and there is sometimes a 25 -50ft buffer requirement depending on water flow category. At any rate Im no environmentalist, but rather a conversationalist. I do not have a problem with clearcuts, but I do when they get into areas that stay wet 50 to 60% of the year.
Turkeys need roost area in and around creeks, sloughs, and bottoms. They need the mast in the fall. Yeas they need diversity but eliminating trees in areas that take lifetimes to grow back don't sit too well with me. Finally, if bigger and wider SMZ corridors are left it makes it easier for turkeys to move around to get to a different area

I'm not a big government guy at least on the national level, but I wonder if some of these laws regarding BMP practices in Georgia need to be re-looked at especially in light of declining populations. Also, better and stiffer enforcement penalties when violations occur.

hadn't written this much in years hope it leads to a good discussion.

I agree with the BMP observations as a legitimate factor. Had about a 6,500 acre Rayonier lease not too long ago that they jumped the price up $4 an acre in one year so we all said, "bump that it's not worth it." Everything you described is exactly what was going on but it wasn't originally like that when we took it over. Until, the next aggressive cutting cycle which was probably 20+ years later on a lot of the property. Then very little SMZ buffer left. Let's just say, with all the other things going on, in the end that 6500 acres held very, very few turkeys.

Neighboring land owner who was a forester, turkey hunter and much more conservation minded had I think about 1,800 acres. They were aggressive with predator trapping, prescribed fire on a well planned smaller block consistent rotation, Had sizable SMZ buffers. Harvested smaller blocks of timber for habitat diversity and when replanted trees a did so a little thinner than the norm and focused on good nesting and brooding cover. In return they easily held 3-4x's the birds as a result on a much smaller property.

As all this has unfolded I find it ironic the NWTF's somewhat recent sponsorship, partnership and promotion over the past, maybe 10 years with Rayonier. Does Rayonier have turkeys that live on their land that someone can pay a lot of money to go and hunt. Yes! Is Rayonier leading the way in BMP's and sounding the alarm in regards to the decline we're seeing in wild turkeys across the SE and beyond. NOPE! $$$ certainly is playing a role in these decisions.

I'm not sure about other timber companies or how their doing things but this is what I've personally witnessed. However, with a company like Rayonier my guess is they probably have a good bit of sway with the private and public sector foresters, forestry and establishment of things like BMP's. If money is the main driver and wildlife and habitat are not then there is a trickling down affect to all landowners if they're managing for wildlife or not. In order to continue to sustain and manage our wildlife (not just turkeys) for the future, I think there really has to be a very organized and strategic partnership between both public (state, Fed, etc.) and private landowners, along with these conservation organizations to enact some change.

Is it coming? I hope so, but really interested on thoughts of how we (since the wildlife is ours) can be proactive in not just voicing opinions but working towards these things.

FYI, in this scenario I don't have a lot of faith that any of the higher ups who are driving the bus at the NWTF have ever actually stepped foot on many, or any of the average leases and properties owned by timber companies like Rayonier.

Thoughts?

 

[buckpasser]

I agree with the BMP observations as a legitimate factor. Had about a 6,500 acre Rayonier lease not too long ago that they jumped the price up $4 an acre in one year so we all said, "bump that it's not worth it." Everything you described is exactly what was going on but it wasn't originally like that when we took it over. Until, the next aggressive cutting cycle which was probably 20+ years later on a lot of the property. Then very little SMZ buffer left. Let's just say, with all the other things going on, in the end that 6500 acres held very, very few turkeys.

Neighboring land owner who was a forester, turkey hunter and much more conservation minded had I think about 1,800 acres. They were aggressive with predator trapping, prescribed fire on a well planned smaller block consistent rotation, Had sizable SMZ buffers. Harvested smaller blocks of timber for habitat diversity and when replanted trees a did so a little thinner than the norm and focused on good nesting and brooding cover. In return they easily held 3-4x's the birds as a result on a much smaller property.

As all this has unfolded I find it ironic the NWTF's somewhat recent sponsorship, partnership and promotion over the past, maybe 10 years with Rayonier. Does Rayonier have turkeys that live on their land that someone can pay a lot of money to go and hunt. Yes! Is Rayonier leading the way in BMP's and sounding the alarm in regards to the decline we're seeing in wild turkeys across the SE and beyond. NOPE! $$$ certainly is playing a role in these decisions.

I'm not sure about other timber companies or how their doing things but this is what I've personally witnessed. However, with a company like Rayonier my guess is they probably have a good bit of sway with the private and public sector foresters, forestry and establishment of things like BMP's. If money is the main driver and wildlife and habitat are not then there is a trickling down affect to all landowners if they're managing for wildlife or not. In order to continue to sustain and manage our wildlife (not just turkeys) for the future, I think there really has to be a very organized and strategic partnership between both public (state, Fed, etc.) and private landowners, along with these conservation organizations to enact some change.

Is it coming? I hope so, but really interested on thoughts of how we (since the wildlife is ours) can be proactive in not just voicing opinions but working towards these things.

FYI, in this scenario I don't have a lot of faith that any of the higher ups who are driving the bus at the NWTF have ever actually stepped foot on many, or any of the average leases and properties owned by timber companies like Rayonier.

Thoughts?

I probably never gave NWTF a fair chance, because the local chapter guys I knew exhibited zero knowledge about turkeys or turkey hunting. It was a social thing and I saw no benefit. At least DU supposedly bought/buys prairie nesting habitat. What is NWTF good for at this point? Introducing more turkey hunters? I’m not being sarcastic in this case. Someone let me know what I’m missing.

 

[Dupree]

I probably never gave NWTF a fair chance, because the local chapter guys I knew exhibited zero knowledge about turkeys or turkey hunting. It was a social thing and I saw no benefit. At least DU supposedly bought/buys prairie nesting habitat. What is NWTF good for at this point? Introducing more turkey hunters? I’m not being sarcastic in this case. Someone let me know what I’m missing.

I do know that the nwtf has contributed money for land purchases. 2-3 years ago they put some money with other groups and the state to purchase a tract that bordered paulding forest. I’m sure a quick google search could give you some details. That being said, I feel like they have become such a large group with so much overhead and frivolous expenses that my money would be better used by turkeys for tomorrow. I will still go to a local nwtf banquet and buy some raffle tickets and such, but when they send me a letter every month or two asking for more money I throw it in the trash.