We all have our little crosses to bear....(Crossbow Article)

TOW

Senior Member
BEARING THE CROSS

BY DON ZAIDLE

"Anyone, regardless of experience, can pick up a crossbow and go kill a deer."

"A crossbow is as accurate and deadly as a rifle."

"A crossbow has a much greater range than a compound."

"A crossbow is much more powerful than a compound."

"All of the above gives a crossbow hunter an unfair advantage."

If you believe any of the foregoing statements, I'd bet a post hole against a panful of cornbread that you are a hardcore bowhunter and have never fired (let alone hunted with) a crossbow in your life.

Since the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department legalized crossbows in 1997 for the general deer season, the anti-crossbow rhetoric has heated to *habanero* intensity. We wanted to find out how much of it was true, and how much myth. Unbiased answers were hard to come by. Ergo, we (actually, I) got hold of a couple of crossbows and performed a series of comparisons.

To establish my qualifications, I have messed with bows of varying degrees of sophistication since I could walk. My first "serious" bow (as opposed to those spindly wood laths packaged on cardboard backing featuring silk-screened Indians and two wooden arrows) was a stout *bois d' arc* limb strung with a length of trotline cord. Arrows painstakingly whittled from willow limbs and fletched with chicken feathers flew amazingly true. Thirty-eight Special pistol cases provided blunt "field points." The blade from an old pocket knifed served as my single broadhead. I actually managed to pot a cottontail with the latter, and promptly made a short-lived quiver from the tanned hide.

My first real bow was a 40-pound Martin recurve purchased from Buddy's Hardware in Lake Worth, Texas. I later acquired a Bear Blacktail Hunter--my first compound. My last compound was a Browning Nomad (wooden riser, 70-pound draw) from whence issued 33-inch 2219 Easton XX75 arrows fitted with Bodkin three-blade steel broadheads. I since moved on (reverted?) to a custom 60-pound longbow measuring 66 inches strung, and cedar arrows tipped with Zwicky Black Diamond Delta broadheads.

From age six to present (none of your business), rifles ranging from .22 Long Rifle to .375 H&H magnum have dented my pocketbook and anatomy in varying degrees of carnage. My "all around" rifle is a .300 Weatherby Magnum, my "medium" handgun a S&W Model 66 .357 Magnum with 4-inch barrel. In between, I have played with black powder smokepoles ranging from .36-caliber "squirrel rifles" to .60-caliber "buffalo rifles."

The point is, I know my bows, my guns, and my handguns. The one thing I did not know was the crossbow, which placed me in a position to evaluate it from a diverse range of experience and neutrality.
With my bona fides established, here is what I learned in my tryst with the Evil Crossbow.

Actually, that "evil" bit accounts to more than mere poetic license. In 1139 A.D., Pope Innocent II declared the crossbow "evil," calling it "deadly and hateful to God and unfit to be used among Christians." On the other hand, the weapon was tacitly acceptable for killing non-Christians.

They were deadly in the extreme, but cumbersome to carry and slow to fire. A skilled longbowman could loose six arrows to the crossbowman's one.
Though similar in function and appearance, modern crossbows differ greatly from the ancient war weapons. They are much lighter, sleeker, and of considerably less draw weight. Although some states restrict minimum and maximum draw weight of hunting crossbows (usually 125 and 200 pounds respectively), Texas restricts only the minimum at 125 pounds. That sounds like a lot, but even at 200 pounds the shorter stroke of a crossbow yields arrow speeds only in the 300 fps range--about the same as an overdraw compound.

The two crossbows I tested (a Horton "Legend SL" and Tenpoint "Magnum X2") were 175-pound compounds. I took them to David's Outdoors in Weatherford, Texas, where owner David Park helped me chronograph arrow speeds. (By the way, David's Outdoors is actually a bow shop that just happens to carry other outdoors stuff--but no crossbows--and is well worth a visit. Call 817-594-0821 and tell David or Cameron Hale I sent you.) I averaged the speeds of three shots each with aluminum and carbon arrows measuring 20 inches and weighing 425 grains, total six shots per bow. The Tenpoint averaged 308.66 fps, the Horton 283.66 fps. There was no difference between aluminum and carbon.

Those are "muzzle" not downrange velocities. Arrow speed drops quickly over range as evidenced by the shaft's looping trajectory, which is why most modern crossbows have built-in range compensators. (Though equal at the muzzle, carbon arrows retained slightly more downrange velocity.) At the target, retained energy (the stepchild of momentum that provides penetration) is about the same as a heavier arrow delivered at less speed from a 65-pound conventional compound. In other words, no real advantage. (I did put one errant arrow through a tree limb, a feat accomplished several times in the past with a compound.)

Accuracy-wise, crossbows are on par with compounds set up with sight pins, string peep, and mechanical release. Because I already knew how bows work, I was shooting 4-inch crossbow groups at 20 yards within two hours after sighting in. On the second day, I got my first "Robin Hood" (splitting one arrow with another), so gradually backed off to the 50-yard mark. At that range, average groups ballooned to 6 inches. (The maximum effective hunting range recommended by crossbow makers is 40 yards.)

Note that I shot all those groups from a benchrest--the one thing you can do with a crossbow that you cannot do with a conventional bow. This presumed "advantage" should not be construed "unfair" anymore than should lighted sight pins, stabilizers, or a string peep aperture. All serve to improve accuracy and help insure a quick, clean kill. To criticize shooting from a rest when possible is hypocrisy.

Shooting offhand, I would not attempt to take game beyond 30 yards--the same personal limit I use with a conventional bow. Steadier hands might consistently make 40- or even 50-yard shots at game, but such apple-skewering William Tell-types are rare.

I knew the crossbows I tested were much noisier than most compounds, but I didn't realize how much until I shot alongside a compound shooter. The poor guy actually flinched and ducked for cover when I let loose. He said he thought "the contraption had come unwound." Although I did not go to the extreme of enlisting a sound level meter, I would guess the average crossbow is twice to three times louder than a compound.

Another deterrent to a quick second shot is the contortion of motion when cocking a crossbow. To hand cock, one must possess a sufficiently hirsute chest to place his foot in the cocking stirrup, grasp the string with both hands, and pull it back until the trigger catches, taking care to apply equal pressure to both sides of the string lest accuracy suffer.

Once cocked, the arrow is loaded into (actually, "onto") the "barrel" or guide rails. Bear in mind this involves "dead-lifting" a minimum 125 pounds. My bows were 175-pounders. As part of the testing, I asked random and sundry acquaintances (including the UPS man) to cock the bows. Half could, half could not.

For those unable to cock by hand, crossbow makers offer a variety of mechanical cocking devices. One type is a hand-cranked winch attached to the stock. Another is a compound lever--a modern version of the "goat's foot." A cocking strap is another option. By hand or with mechanical assistance, cocking a crossbow involves a lot of motion and noise.

Unless the hunter is 100 percent hidden, he might as well bang a drum and send up a flare. Like the black powder hunter, the crossbowman gets only one shot.

Another presumed "advantage" that I consider a detriment to accuracy is the ability to use a telescopic sight. I group much better with a peep-and-pin arrangement, or a non-magnifying optical sight like the Millett Redot that came with the Tenpoint. I suspect this is because I overcompensate for movement exaggerated by telescopic magnification. Whatever the reason, telescopes are not for short range shooting and hence out of place on a short-range weapon like a crossbow.

There is a lot more to this crossbow business than space permits discussing.

Just remember the following:

- A bowhunter using a peep sight does not have to worry about consistent anchoring.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

- A bowhunter using a mechanical release does not have to worry about consistent release or plucking the string.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

- A bowhunter using a hand sling does not have to worry about torquing the bow.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

- A bowhunter using an overdraw system can attain arrow velocities near 300 feet per second.
So can a crossbow hunter.

- A bowhunter must estimate range accurately to shoot accurately.
So must a crossbow hunter.

- A bowhunter's maximum practical range is 40 yards.
So is a crossbow hunter's.

- A bowhunter must practice regularly and meticulously maintain his equipment to remain accurate.
So must a crossbow hunter.

A crossbow is neither evil nor magic. It is simply another hunting tool that falls somewhere between conventional bows and muzzleloaders in terms of accuracy, lethality, and effective range. Its use is by no means unethical, nor does it afford any great advantage. Moreover, it is a metric ton of fun to shoot.

We all have our little crosses to bear....
 
"Anyone, regardless of experience, can pick up a crossbow and go kill a deer."

"A crossbow is as accurate and deadly as a rifle."

"A crossbow has a much greater range than a compound."

"A crossbow is much more powerful than a compound."

"All of the above gives a crossbow hunter an unfair advantage."

:rofl: BALONEY
 

matthewsman

Senior Member
Often times we hear" you must have never shot a crossbow"

TOW said:
BEARING THE CROSS

BY DON ZAIDLE

the point is, I know my bows,

We'll see :rofl:
TOW said:
Because I already knew how bows work, I was shooting 4-inch crossbow groups at 20 yards within two hours after sighting in. On the second day, I got my first "Robin Hood" (splitting one arrow with another),
How many compound bowshooters got a "robinhood"their second day with a new bow?How many of us get a "robinhood "every other day?

[QUOTE+TOW]as per Mr.Zaidle

1.- A bowhunter using a peep sight does not have to worry about consistent anchoring.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

2.- A bowhunter using a mechanical release does not have to worry about consistent release or plucking the string.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

3.- A bowhunter using a hand sling does not have to worry about torquing the bow.
Neither does a crossbow hunter.

4.A bowhunter's maximum practical range is 40 yards.
So is a crossbow hunter's.

5.- A bowhunter must practice regularly and meticulously maintain his equipment to remain accurate.
So must a crossbow hunter.....[/QUOTE]

1.A peep does not create a consistant anchor point.An expierienced shooter will tell you in spite of the small diameter,there is plenty of room to move around looking thru a peep.A crossbow hunter does not have to worry about seeing thru that same peep in low light conditions.A croos bow hunter doesn't have to worry about serving the peep,the peep moving,or turning not to line up properly.

2. If you show me a bowhunter that doesn't worry about a consistant release,I'll show you one that can't shoot accurately.Even though we don't ,for the most part ,use Berger buttons anymore,the release is still critical....Did I creep up?Did I punch the release?Am I pulling against the wall?

3.What is he thinking?High wrist, low wrist, follow thru,Too loose around the grip,or white knuckled tight........
4.Wheras most new crossbow shooters believe they can do this,even most expierienced archers would attempt this only under near perfect conditions...

5.That's true,but it would be a rare archer indeed that "robinhooded' arrows on the second day.....

I just wanted this to be fairly represented,Donnie
 

TOW

Senior Member
matthewsman - "How many compound bowshooters got a "robinhood"their second day with a new bow?How many of us get a "robinhood "every other day?"

TOW - Crossbow arrows are much easier to "robin hood" because the butt end has an insert instead of a nock. He was also shooting these off of a rest.

matthewsman - "1.A peep does not create a consistant anchor point.An expierienced shooter will tell you in spite of the small diameter,there is plenty of room to move around looking thru a peep."

TOW - Well it sure helps. You can tuck/raise your chin and as long as you can see through the peep your in the money.How many of us actually center our pin in the center of the peep? Especially in the ehat of the moment shooting a deer. We are talking about hunting accuracy here and not shooting spots.

matthewsman - "A crossbow hunter does not have to worry about seeing thru that same peep in low light conditions.A croos bow hunter doesn't have to worry about serving the peep,the peep moving,or turning not to line up properly."

TOW - Sure he has to look trough a peep unless he has a scope on the crossbow. What kind of sight did you think they come with? And yes, vertical bows can have scopes mounted too.

matthewsman - "2. If you show me a bowhunter that doesn't worry about a consistant release,I'll show you one that can't shoot accurately.Even though we don't ,for the most part ,use Berger buttons anymore,the release is still critical....Did I creep up?Did I punch the release?Am I pulling against the wall?"

TOW - How accurate does one have to be to hit a basketball (deer's vitals) at 20 yards? I've seen a lot of archery shots and most bowhunters are "punchers" especially when it is a deer they are shooting at.Again - We are talking about hunting accuracy here and not shooting spots.


matthewsman - "3.What is he thinking?High wrist, low wrist, follow thru,Too loose around the grip,or white knuckled tight........"

TOW - I believe what he is saying if you use a wrist strap you can shoot open handed and bow torque is lessened considerably. Maybe not completely eliminated, but definitely lessened.

matthewsman - "4.Wheras most new crossbow shooters believe they can do this,even most expierienced archers would attempt this only under near perfect conditions..."

TOW - The proof is in the shooting. I've watched a compound shooter nail a mule deer doe at 90 yards on a frontal shot. Killed her deader than a hammer. Quite a few of present day archers and a lot of the "bowhunting pioneers" would think nothing about shooting 40+ yards. A 40-yard shot out west is a chip shot. I elk hunted with a local in Wyoming that had a mark on his pin guard. I asked him what that was for. He said," That is my 125 yard pin".

matthewsman - "5.That's true,but it would be a rare archer indeed that "robinhooded' arrows on the second day....."

TOW - Again - Crossbow arrows are much easier to "robin hood" because the butt end has an insert instead of a nock. He was also shooting these off of a rest.

matthewsman - "I just wanted this to be fairly represented,Donnie"

TOW - He 'might' have stretched it a little but the gist of it is we are talking hunting accuracy and not shooting 60 Xs.

Is the crossbow easier to learn and maintain proficiency? Yes.

But the next question is - Is the compound easier to learn and maintain proficiency with than a recurve or longbow?

Then one more - What does an easier learning curve and being able to maintain proficiency easier have to do with the actual HUNT?
 

OLE ROD

Member
Tow,
I pretty much agree with your post except,I feel like the big advantage of the cross bow is before the shot.
You dont have to pick the right moment to stand,or wait for that perfect moment to draw back your bow.
I would say that 70% of missed opportunties were during these critical moments.Moments in which a crossbow hunter doesn't have to go through.
 

TOW

Senior Member
OLE ROD said:
Tow,
I pretty much agree with your post except,I feel like the big advantage of the cross bow is before the shot.
You dont have to pick the right moment to stand,or wait for that perfect moment to draw back your bow.
I would say that 70% of missed opportunties were during these critical moments.Moments in which a crossbow hunter doesn't have to go through.

Hi Ole Rod,

Have you got your Indiana lease again this year?

I really think more bowhunters are busted from a deer winding us than them seeing us attempting to make a draw on them.

I cant shoot directly behind my tree (horizontal limbs - vertical tree) so do we have a tie here? ;)
 

matthewsman

Senior Member
I'll leave it alone after this

TOW said:
matthewsman - "I just wanted this to be fairly represented,Donnie"

1.TOW - He 'might' have stretched it a little but the gist of it is we are talking hunting accuracy and not shooting 60 Xs.

2.Is the crossbow easier to learn and maintain proficiency? Yes.

3.Then one more - What does an easier learning curve and being able to maintain proficiency easier have to do with the actual HUNT?

1.I did think he stretched it a little,that's why I bothered posting.I do require "60x"accuracy out of anything I shoot at a animal...Just anywhere in a basketball won't do.I shoot softball size groups at 40 yds on a bad day,I shoot ping-pong ball size groups at 20 most of the time.In the excitement of the hunt,I shoot 4"off sometimes at 15 yds.If I was shooting for basketball type groups,I would be missing completly.


2.That's all anyone's been saying all along,it is easier.You guys argued vehemently with Randy and the others of us that suggested otherwise in the other thread...........

3.Nothing wrong with a crossbow.Some think we need to include it in primitive weapons,that's all...It doesn't make anyone greedy or anything else people have been accused of...All the crossbow rhetoric starts to be pounded on so often here,it reminds me of a young kid pulling up beside you blaring Gangsta rap so loudly you can't ignore it or enjoy the conversation in your car......It's time to take off the skirts and put down the pom-poms,you can quit cheering now.Every archery shop around here has crossbows in it,they're legal for archery season...Those that are going to use them are going to use them....let it go,it's to the point of being obnoxious............donnie
 

TOW

Senior Member
matthewsman -"I'll leave it alone after this"

TOW - Me too..

matthewsman - "..............I do require "60x"accuracy out of anything I shoot at a animal...Just anywhere in a basketball won't do.I shoot softball size groups at 40 yds on a bad day,I shoot ping-pong ball size groups at 20 most of the time.In the excitement of the hunt,I shoot 4"off sometimes at 15 yds.If I was shooting for basketball type groups,I would be missing completly."

TOW - Re-read what I posted. I didn't say it was OK to shoot "basketball sized groups". I said "How accurate does one have to be to hit a basketball (deer's vitals) at 20 yards?' Two totally diferent subjects. I can guarantee you that not a whole lot of bowhunters can match or even need to match your accuracy requirements.

matthewsman - "That's all anyone's been saying all along,it is easier.You guys argued vehemently with Randy and the others of us that suggested otherwise in the other thread..........."

TOW - You snipped the part about compounds be easier than recurves, but that is OK. The degree of being easier is the discussion we were having. I don't think you will find where I said that they were one and the same as to ease of mastery..

3.Nothing wrong with a crossbow.Some think we need to include it in primitive weapons,that's all.............donnie[/QUOTE]

TOW - That battle was fought and lost. They are classfied as archery equipment as they should be.Just like compounds were once upon a time.

You have a good day.. Enjoyed the banter..
 

OLE ROD

Member
Tow,
Yes I did get my leases again this year.
It's kind of hard to hunt Georgia after you hunt up there.
I took my Daughter up there during muzzle loader season and we had a ball.
She ask me"Dad why can't hunting in Georgia be like this."
We saw at least 15 deer every time we went to the woods.
We had four 120 class bucks within 80 yards.
I was waiting for that 50 yard shot that I new she could make.
It didn't happen but we had a great time in GOD'S great outdoors .
 

TOW

Senior Member
OLE ROD - "Tow,Yes I did get my leases again this year.
It's kind of hard to hunt Georgia after you hunt up there.


SHHHHHH!! THAT IS A SECRET!!

Seriously, I'm glad you are enjoying your hunts in Hoosierland I hope your daughter bags a big 'un this year.

There is nothing like hunting with your kids is there?
 

gabowman

Senior Member
I see they'll ALWAYS be a BIG debate between compounds and xbows. I am one of those die hard compound bow hunters and admit that I dont know much of anything about xbows but I did shoot one once last winter and I'll tell ya that with the xbow I shot I would NEVER attempt a 50 yard shot (heck, not even a 40 yard shot) with that one. That thing had such a loud TWAAAK the deer would have moved 3 feet before the arrow ever got to the deer.

Now as I have said, I am the first to admit that I know practically nothing about crossbows but I'm one that admits that it doesnt matter at all to me what someone wants to hunt with. First thing needed during archery season is good accurate equipment to harvest deer with but, to me, it's more the hunter having skills and lesser how fast the equipment is. Crossbows are a great way to get hunters into the woods before rifle season and if I didnt bowhunt with a compound I'd definitely be looking at crossbows. IMO, killing deer with either requires some skills that alot of rifle hunters never experience.

Just my 2 cents worth...

GB
 

W4DSB

Senior Member
here's my 2 cents worth
i have shot bows recurve and then compounds since 1970
i have shot many different bows from many mfgs.
i bought into the crossbow craze before they were legal to hunt with in georgia and purchased 2 barnett demons . one for me and one for my son. now with that said here's my experience on the subject.
1. I can not group arrows with the crossbow as well as my compound
2.My crossbow is noisier than my compound
3. i do not see any improved trajectory
4.It is easier to manuver the cross bow in the stand
5. i still practiced daily just like with a compound bow
6. the crossbow is not a magic wand to make anyone a proficiant archer
Now this year I am going back to my Compound and the crossbow will hang on the wall.I can and do shoot better quiter and can shoot greater distances with the compound.
I hold no ill will against anyone who wishes to use a crossbow as their weapon of choice but it's not for me.

And as a side note does anyone here remember Doug Birons archery shop in Sugar Hill Ga.? Doug taught me alot of things about archery starting in the early 80's up until his passing due to lung cancer. He Hated my switching to the crossbow! :mad:
 

TOW

Senior Member
wd4sb,

No offense meant but maybe if you moved up to a more top of the line crossbow you might like it better..
 

W4DSB

Senior Member
maybe so .............
 
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