What Is True?

[bullethead]

Bullet I have asked this before. Do you believe in love? do you believe in hate ? How do they exist when you only feel them? You do not believe feeling is true when I know being Human you experience these feelings. Is our spirit lying to us?

They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings.
People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false. You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

The transporter question is interesting because it kind of begs the question of "What is the relationship of our 'meat' to our consciousness"?

Well, why not meat, flesh, bone and marrow. It seems there is a clear delineation between them in the Bible in order to attempt to make humans understand what they are dealing with in the word of God.

Here's what Hebrew's says:

12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So many use the terms "Soul or Spirit" in a synonymous manner. Clearly they are not, just as a joint made from bones is not the same as the marrow within the bones. Uses the verse to create a separation between matters of the heart, which in this case I suppose would be compassion etc. and matters of the brain, thoughts etc. Wpuld this be admitting a connection between the physical and metaphysical all while stating they are clearly two separate entities operating in a symbiotic nature?

All done with the analogy of a sharp double edged sword. What do you think Ambush? Using a weapon of extraordinary ability to inflict pain and death on the battlefield to delineate the differences between those things that so many assume are the same and a little more. This isn't the only time in the Bible this sword is mentioned either.

To expand on this, and let's say we assume that the "soul" is a metaphysical being that is non-dimensional (that's a new level of thinking huh?) but I say "non-dimensional" for the sake of my next statement where space, and size constrictions do not apply to the "soul" if we apply this stuff to the Buddhist way of believing. Which is in re-incarnation where every creature has the potential to be a relative from the past. So in order for you, your essence, your Soul to occupy a human form in one life and that of a mosquito in another life the soul would truly have to be a non-dimensional entity capable of occupying any living form of any size.

If this is true, what then, role does the "spirit" of a human play separate from the "soul"?

 

[ambush80]

They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings.
People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false. You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.

Richie,
Furthermore, with the right chemicals and the right electrical stimulus applied to you, you could be made to feel in love. Is that real love? What's the difference? Inversely, people have had injuries that cause them to forget ever having loved a spouse or child. Was that real love? Where did it go?

 

[ambush80]

Well, why not meat, flesh, bone and marrow. It seems there is a clear delineation between them in the Bible in order to attempt to make humans understand what they are dealing with in the word of God.

Here's what Hebrew's says:

12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So many use the terms "Soul or Spirit" in a synonymous manner. Clearly they are not, just as a joint made from bones is not the same as the marrow within the bones. Uses the verse to create a separation between matters of the heart, which in this case I suppose would be compassion etc. and matters of the brain, thoughts etc. Wpuld this be admitting a connection between the physical and metaphysical all while stating they are clearly two separate entities operating in a symbiotic nature?

All done with the analogy of a sharp double edged sword. What do you think Ambush? Using a weapon of extraordinary ability to inflict pain and death on the battlefield to delineate the differences between those things that so many assume are the same and a little more. This isn't the only time in the Bible this sword is mentioned either.

To expand on this, and let's say we assume that the "soul" is a metaphysical being that is non-dimensional (that's a new level of thinking huh?) but I say "non-dimensional" for the sake of my next statement where space, and size constrictions do not apply to the "soul" if we apply this stuff to the Buddhist way of believing. Which is in re-incarnation where every creature has the potential to be a relative from the past. So in order for you, your essence, your Soul to occupy a human form in one life and that of a mosquito in another life the soul would truly have to be a non-dimensional entity capable of occupying any living form of any size.

If this is true, what then, role does the "spirit" of a human play separate from the "soul"?

Interesting questions and ideas.

Firstly, when I mentioned 'meat' I was thinking of the entirety of the physical body, not just muscle tissue.

There's a lot to unpack in Bible verses so this may take a while but here goes.

"12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

We have to find out what the writers meant by 'soul' and 'spirit'. I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't read Hebrew so in trying to get at this I will defer to whatever definitions you give me. What is your distinction between the 'soul' and 'spirit'?

Then there's the issue of metaphor. The use of the word sword. It's not a knife. It's not a dagger. It's not a scalpel (They didn't know what a scalpel is). It's a sword. A brutish instrument meant for hacking and plunging. In this case it reads to me like hacking as in dismembering, not disarticulating. But then he says piercing, a semi controlled use of the instrument. That's not typically how one would separate body parts but it says 'piercing' (if that's indeed the correct translation from the Hebrew). So it seems that he's saying that the way that soul and spirit are related is like how joints and marrow are related. To get to the joints and marrow requires some forceful use of the instrument, especially if what you've got is a sword.

The whole point is to 'discern' the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


"discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Of course the writer isn't talking about the physical heart because err'body knows that's not where thoughts or feelings come from. Or was he? Anyhoo, He seems to be saying that the sword (the Scripure) pierces in order to "perceive or recognize"( from Webster) the thoughts and intentions of the heart. That's enough on that.


I'll assume what you say about the soul being metaphysical and non-dimensional so we can keep discussing this. I reserve that the soul isn't a proven thing.

It's strange to me that you bring up the Hindu concept of the soul in order to describe one of its characteristics; that it can fit in various sized vessels. Equally curious is that you use the Hindu concept that a soul might inhabit a mosquito.

So what about the spirit? How do you distinguish it from the soul?

 

[welderguy]

Richie,
Furthermore, with the right chemicals and the right electrical stimulus applied to you, you could be made to feel in love. Is that real love? What's the difference? Inversely, people have had injuries that cause them to forget ever having loved a spouse or child. Was that real love? Where did it go?

Isaiah 49:15

15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Man's love may come and go, but God's love is immutable.

 

[ambush80]

Isaiah 49:15

15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Man's love may come and go, but God's love is immutable.

She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.

Try to tell me I'm wrong.

Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.

 

[welderguy]

She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.

Try to tell me I'm wrong.

Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.

That's exactly what the verse is saying.

 

[660griz]

She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.

Try to tell me I'm wrong.

Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.

God kills lots of babies in the womb and outside the womb.

 

[ambush80]

God kills lots of babies in the womb and outside the womb.

If He's real, He's entitled.

 

[660griz]

If He's real, He's entitled.

And he created us in his own image. Hmmmm

 

[ambush80]

And he created us in his own image. Hmmmm

But His ways are not our ways.

I know that one of your biggest beefs with Christianity is how cruel their God seems. I have that problem, too, but the believers see Him as sovereign and mysterious. We who are clay are not to judge the Potter.

 

[bullethead]

But His ways are not our ways.

I know that one of your biggest beefs with Christianity is how cruel their God seems. I have that problem, too, but the believers see Him as sovereign and mysterious. We who are clay are not to judge the Potter.

Yep yep yep.
"There is no uncaused cause"
Except our god
"Our god loves us"
Especially when he kills us
"Everyone is held accountable for their actions"
Except our god, he is sovereign

He is the opposite of his own rules and flourishes through the excuses of his believers.

 

[red neck richie]

They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings.
People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false. You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.

Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.

 

[bullethead]

Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.

I don't own a dog and the wife has been out in the kennel since last 4th of July because she peed on the floor when the fireworks scared her.
She seems happy when she gets her water and I let her run around the yard for a bit.

 

[bullethead]

Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.

And what is the affection from the animals called?
Where does that come from?

 

[WaltL1]

Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.

That's horrible!
I would never treat a dog that way.........

 

[red neck richie]

And what is the affection from the animals called?
Where does that come from?

Instinct.

 

[WaltL1]

Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.

Richie if this subject interests you, you can spend days reading the scientific journals about what we know about how and where emotions are produced in ourselves and the research that is being done and that has been done.

 

[red neck richie]

Richie if this subject interests you, you can spend days reading the scientific journals about what we know about how and where emotions are produced in ourselves and the research that is being done and that has been done.

Walt it is interesting. But I am looking at it from a spiritual aspect and you are looking at it from a scientific aspect. I'm not really into man's unit of measurement. I am guided by the spirit which doesn't always seem logical to some. And there is no scale for it but how scientist try to explain it. I understand your point of view and I hope you understand mine. I am interested in what others think and try to figure out why they think that.

 

[bullethead]

Walt it is interesting. But I am looking at it from a spiritual aspect and you are looking at it from a scientific aspect. I'm not really into man's unit of measurement. I am guided by the spirit which doesn't always seem logical to some. And there is no scale for it but how scientist try to explain it. I understand your point of view and I hope you understand mine. I am interested in what others think and try to figure out why they think that.

So basically it comes down to a "who is tougher, superman or mighty mouse" conversation.
When you deal with and in variables that exist nowhere but an individuals mind and vary from individual to individual how can you establish a baseline as to where to start a discussion?
What is your definition of a spiritual aspect?
And if you are not interested in man's unit of measurement, why talk to man about it?