Bart Ehrman article

[SemperFiDawg]

M

The problem, though, is for some there is no “him” to surrender to.

Well the first person everyone has to surrender to is their ‘self’ and everyone has one of those. That gets ‘self’ out of the way, but that is THE major problem for most. It was for me and every other believer I think I have ever met.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Maybe thats the difference between you and former Christians turned A/As such as myself.
You tossed out the religiosity crap but remained convinced God was still there, he just wasnt as you were told.
When we (I) tossed out the religiosity crap we (I) also suspended the belief in Gods existence. Why? Because it was "religiosity" that said he existed. Never having had a "come to Jesus" experience, thats all there was.
Thats why now we (I) cant/wont just take man's word for it.
Its gotta come from the Head Honcho himself.
As Bullet has said many times - He knows where we are at and could easily convince us.

Makes sense, just bear in mind whose place it is to do the looking. If I read you correctly, you possibly threw the baby out with the bath water. If that’s a possibility and there’s no baby.....

 

[bullethead]

Is anyone guaranteed to find Jesus if they give it an honest attempt, even over years?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Is anyone guaranteed to find Jesus if they give it an honest attempt, even over years?

I think so. That’s based off my personal experience. There are some (very few) radicals out there that hold that some are predestined for Hades no matter what, but that view goes against the entire narrative of scripture as I read it. It’s another useless debate I won’t venture into and is a debate that exists between believers so would be inappropriate down here

 

[WaltL1]

Makes sense, just bear in mind whose place it is to do the looking. If I read you correctly, you possibly threw the baby out with the bath water. If that’s a possibility and there’s no baby.....

I wont deny thats certainly a possibility.

 

[Spotlite]

Hey now, that sure sounds alot like when we A/As dont deny you guys have had an "experience" but we question if its the source you think it is

Yes Sir! Very true!

 

[Spotlite]

Hey now, that sure sounds alot like when we A/As dont deny you guys have had an "experience" but we question if its the source you think it is

Fortunately, having an Atheist cousin I get to hear it all.

But Christians are just as skeptical to all those others as Atheists are to Christianity.

Most Christians don’t realize that the early Christians were considered Atheists because they didn’t believe in the Roman gods.

My cousin calls me a backslid Atheist some days. Other days he says he’s a little more atheister than I am because he took it one God further lol.

 

[WaltL1]

Fortunately, having an Atheist cousin I get to hear it all.

But Christians are just as skeptical to all those others as Atheists are to Christianity.

Most Christians don’t realize that the early Christians were considered Atheists because they didn’t believe in the Roman gods.

My cousin calls me a backslid Atheist some days. Other days he says he’s a little more atheister than I am because he took it one God further lol.

Most Christians don’t realize that the early Christians were considered Atheists because they didn’t believe in the Roman gods.

A couple years ago I seriously offended a good Christian friend of mine for sharing that ^ with him. Fortunately he did a little research on it and found the same info and forgave me for saying such an insulting thing . We are still good friends.

 

[Spotlite]

A couple years ago I seriously offended a good Christian friend of mine for sharing that ^ with him. Fortunately he did a little research on it and found the same info and forgave me for saying such an insulting thing . We are still good friends.

Yea life is too short to hold grudges. Glad it worked out for y’all. Good friends are hard to come by.

 

[Israel]

A couple years ago I seriously offended a good Christian friend of mine for sharing that ^ with him. Fortunately he did a little research on it and found the same info and forgave me for saying such an insulting thing . We are still good friends.

K-k-k-k-k-kinda strange how it all works. Offense in our sense of "rightness" and all.

It's easy for me to imagine that brother had some issue with being identified with his earlier brothers as being labeled atheists. This matter of a christian being able to identify with, or labeled as an atheist, is pretty strong stuff, or could be. I mean if someone's christianity also holds for them the promise..."at least I am not like those guys" (finding atheists odious)...to have that ground shaken shakes all the way to the top.

Wherever we are invested to a thing, or however we are invested to that thing upon which we build...once it gets shook the: "I am this and not like that"...we get...shook. The impetus for a man to "be" a thing may come as much from desire to not appear as another thing...(fleeing it)...as it may from attraction to a thing.

People run from fire as surely as they run...when running...for an Olympic medal. The motions are the same...though the goals seem outwardly different and may even be offered as different. But even the guy running for Olympic gold (as though toward a thing) may be running...and only running from his notion of failure if he doesn't get it.

I dun lotsa dat runnin'. Still do to whatever extent. Thinking I am running towards...when just running away from. Repentance shines...as gift (though a seeming religious term) but most men understand how important and what things are then shown important, in being made able to have one's mind changed. Course corrections abound. How often learning is no more than being disabused of previously held axioms as it is gaining new info. The taking away of lies/errors is no less valuable than seeing "new" truths added.

Ask a mechanic who'd never deny "righty tighty lefty loosey" but who also has learned when dealing with a rusted bolt the efficacy of a first little nudge to the right (as though tightening, in all counter intuitiveness) may be more help than 10 cans of PB Blaster. It doesn't dis-annul right tighty...but only that in certain circumstances of moment...and for very precise reasons...it really works.

And I understand (to some extent) how we are all (to whatever extent in depending upon how we see ourselves and devoted to that maintenance) always on the alert for the "slipping in" of matters that are, to us, contrary. Watch for the worm in the apple! Or as Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris were once in contentions...the waiting and watching for the "one side" to seek to slip Jesus (Jesus smuggling) into the arguments.

How much of all our "running" is to be made clear to us...am I running from appearing like a smug and hypocritical christian...who can't prove to me satisfactorily (so I say) this thing he says he is running toward? And (LOL...God forbid) I look like him!

Am I running from appearing like a smug and hypocritical atheist, who says I won't believe anything that can't be proven materially...from a consciousness he claims he has, and in him, but were he asked to show...to prove he "has it"...would be no less at some loss? Is it "I think therefore I am"? Only? What about rocks then...do they "exist less?" Or will one show "rock thinking" to establish it also has being?

Running lawfully ain't so small a matter as we might *think*. (Even though this might appear instantly recognized as some form of Jesus smuggling cause some fellow phrased it such "in the Bible") But, leave that out, you can't cut across the field to win in the Olympics either, and be recognized as a "true" competitor. Or seek to bump one off the track using tactics one may decry as illegitimate...when the one decrying no less uses them.

And of course this all breaks down immediately when we see we aren't competing against one another...but only in ourselves....to find consistency to peace. There's no "heaven" awaiting a man who triumphs over his brother, (thinking this what all running is for) nor a **** awaiting a man who learns submission to his brother...as though that is conceding to all unrighteousness. (B-b-b-b-but Lord, I am not like him! and don't want to be...!)

Jesus says some stuff that, if the christian is to run "fairly"/legitimately...he might ignore...due to an ignorance of, but would be foolish to deny.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Things that a christian may find offensive to an extreme...even the most base deriding of Jesus Christ...shall be forgiven. The other matter no man need concern him self with (and surely not the one claiming Christ)...that door is beyond his care for either opening or closing. Yes, that's a very strong assertion by Jesus Christ. Without apology for it. Without explanation of it. And God forbid any man dare another to "go there".

But...one may learn there's a spirit that furiously lusts after that. To bring man to irremediable dam*ation. He absolutely hates Jesus as fount of salvation made through His unswerving righteousness...for it is all that speaks against him, this father of lies...the righteousness of God. The rightness of God of which he has none.
And the christian is rightly taught to a reminder..."we wrestle not with flesh and blood..."

Of course this may engender far more many why's than any seeming answer. But whatever God does, in and with the creation to show Himself...is all and only His business. It's kinda funny how every man just presumes "I should be" (for being is all he has ever known)...but is ready to accuse the same God that causes his being...for doing whatever he cares to in any regard. It's really a bit more than funny...absurd...to, on the grounds of "being", find place to accuse the one who gives being. Shall the clay say to the potter...?

But...it's really not enough for a man to "really not want" to appear absurd, ignorant, hypocritical, foolish, false, or a liar...even unloving or uncaring. Man's want to flee these (yes even dam*ation)...must and can only be received...given as gift...for until revealed...no man knows. No man can believe he is in judgment, nor that there is an eternal one to be fled...unless one reveal to him. God shows through Christ the nature of the things man only perceives as very derived sort of matters he might not want part with. Yep, only God shows what true absurdity is. The true nature of ignorance, hypocrisy, lying...to even the true nature of death. All the things we merely touch in metaphor...until.

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whilst thou art in the way with him...

Note Jesus did not say "agree with my adversary..." but thine. If their be any false equating of my experience of adversary as "any man who opposes me must also be in opposition to the Lord"...well...only God through Christ can show the true nature of falsehood. But just as likewise...if it's not really "me" being opposed...but you Lord...you're also the only one knowing that...and you know how to handle yourself.
Either way...it's quite out of a man's hands.

To take offense does not prove offense is there...just that there's a thing willing to "take it". And to be willing to accept or forgive offense...does not mean it is inconsequential. Quite the contrary "for the christian"...for he is learning the power necessary of being borne long with...and learning to "consider the patience of God as salvation" no less than the mercy extended toward a thing that does not know "what it does".

I'm pretty sure most of us have very decent IQ's...so decent we are capable of being shown they mean absolutely nothing in these matters. Likewise our piety, our devotions, our own measures of ourselves that we might rely on to "tell us anything".

That rock of offense upsets me no less than any other. Thanks be to God. I must be "up" set.

How can one smuggle what so obviously upsets...and is purposed to...everyone?

Disturbed much?

 

[WaltL1]

K-k-k-k-k-kinda strange how it all works. Offense in our sense of "rightness" and all.

It's easy for me to imagine that brother had some issue with being identified with his earlier brothers as being labeled atheists. This matter of a christian being able to identify with, or labeled as an atheist, is pretty strong stuff, or could be. I mean if someone's christianity also holds for them the promise..."at least I am not like those guys" (finding atheists odious)...to have that ground shaken shakes all the way to the top.

Wherever we are invested to a thing, or however we are invested to that thing upon which we build...once it gets shook the: "I am this and not like that"...we get...shook. The impetus for a man to "be" a thing may come as much from desire to not appear as another thing...(fleeing it)...as it may from attraction to a thing.

People run from fire as surely as they run...when running...for an Olympic medal. The motions are the same...though the goals seem outwardly different and may even be offered as different. But even the guy running for Olympic gold (as though toward a thing) may be running...and only running from his notion of failure if he doesn't get it.

I dun lotsa dat runnin'. Still do to whatever extent. Thinking I am running towards...when just running away from. Repentance shines...as gift (though a seeming religious term) but most men understand how important and what things are then shown important, in being made able to have one's mind changed. Course corrections abound. How often learning is no more than being disabused of previously held axioms as it is gaining new info. The taking away of lies/errors is no less valuable than seeing "new" truths added.

Ask a mechanic who'd never deny "righty tighty lefty loosey" but who also has learned when dealing with a rusted bolt the efficacy of a first little nudge to the right (as though tightening, in all counter intuitiveness) may be more help than 10 cans of PB Blaster. It doesn't dis-annul right tighty...but only that in certain circumstances of moment...and for very precise reasons...it really works.

And I understand (to some extent) how we are all (to whatever extent in depending upon how we see ourselves and devoted to that maintenance) always on the alert for the "slipping in" of matters that are, to us, contrary. Watch for the worm in the apple! Or as Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris were once in contentions...the waiting and watching for the "one side" to seek to slip Jesus (Jesus smuggling) into the arguments.

How much of all our "running" is to be made clear to us...am I running from appearing like a smug and hypocritical christian...who can't prove to me satisfactorily (so I say) this thing he says he is running toward? And (LOL...God forbid) I look like him!

Am I running from appearing like a smug and hypocritical atheist, who says I won't believe anything that can't be proven materially...from a consciousness he claims he has, and in him, but were he asked to show...to prove he "has it"...would be no less at some loss? Is it "I think therefore I am"? Only? What about rocks then...do they "exist less?" Or will one show "rock thinking" to establish it also has being?

Running lawfully ain't so small a matter as we might *think*. (Even though this might appear instantly recognized as some form of Jesus smuggling cause some fellow phrased it such "in the Bible") But, leave that out, you can't cut across the field to win in the Olympics either, and be recognized as a "true" competitor. Or seek to bump one off the track using tactics one may decry as illegitimate...when the one decrying no less uses them.

And of course this all breaks down immediately when we see we aren't competing against one another...but only in ourselves....to find consistency to peace. There's no "heaven" awaiting a man who triumphs over his brother, (thinking this what all running is for) nor a **** awaiting a man who learns submission to his brother...as though that is conceding to all unrighteousness. (B-b-b-b-but Lord, I am not like him! and don't want to be...!)

Jesus says some stuff that, if the christian is to run "fairly"/legitimately...he might ignore...due to an ignorance of, but would be foolish to deny.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Things that a christian may find offensive to an extreme...even the most base deriding of Jesus Christ...shall be forgiven. The other matter no man need concern him self with (and surely not the one claiming Christ)...that door is beyond his care for either opening or closing. Yes, that's a very strong assertion by Jesus Christ. Without apology for it. Without explanation of it. And God forbid any man dare another to "go there".

But...one may learn there's a spirit that furiously lusts after that. To bring man to irremediable dam*ation. He absolutely hates Jesus as fount of salvation made through His unswerving righteousness...for it is all that speaks against him, this father of lies...the righteousness of God. The rightness of God of which he has none.
And the christian is rightly taught to a reminder..."we wrestle not with flesh and blood..."

Of course this may engender far more many why's than any seeming answer. But whatever God does, in and with the creation to show Himself...is all and only His business. It's kinda funny how every man just presumes "I should be" (for being is all he has ever known)...but is ready to accuse the same God that causes his being...for doing whatever he cares to in any regard. It's really a bit more than funny...absurd...to, on the grounds of "being", find place to accuse the one who gives being. Shall the clay say to the potter...?

But...it's really not enough for a man to "really not want" to appear absurd, ignorant, hypocritical, foolish, false, or a liar...even unloving or uncaring. Man's want to flee these (yes even dam*ation)...must and can only be received...given as gift...for until revealed...no man knows. No man can believe he is in judgment, nor that there is an eternal one to be fled...unless one reveal to him. God shows through Christ the nature of the things man only perceives as very derived sort of matters he might not want part with. Yep, only God shows what true absurdity is. The true nature of ignorance, hypocrisy, lying...to even the true nature of death. All the things we merely touch in metaphor...until.

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whilst thou art in the way with him...

Note Jesus did not say "agree with my adversary..." but thine. If their be any false equating of my experience of adversary as "any man who opposes me must also be in opposition to the Lord"...well...only God through Christ can show the true nature of falsehood. But just as likewise...if it's not really "me" being opposed...but you Lord...you're also the only one knowing that...and you know how to handle yourself.
Either way...it's quite out of a man's hands.

To take offense does not prove offense is there...just that there's a thing willing to "take it". And to be willing to accept or forgive offense...does not mean it is inconsequential. Quite the contrary "for the christian"...for he is learning the power necessary of being borne long with...and learning to "consider the patience of God as salvation" no less than the mercy extended toward a thing that does not know "what it does".

I'm pretty sure most of us have very decent IQ's...so decent we are capable of being shown they mean absolutely nothing in these matters. Likewise our piety, our devotions, our own measures of ourselves that we might rely on to "tell us anything".

That rock of offense upsets me no less than any other. Thanks be to God. I must be "up" set.

How can one smuggle what so obviously upsets...and is purposed to...everyone?

Disturbed much?

It's easy for me to imagine that brother had some issue with being identified with his earlier brothers as being labeled atheists.

Yes. Interestingly, he was suprised at his own reaction (being offended) as he knew there was really no reason to be. So I think he learned a little something about himself. For my part, I could have easily been offended by his offence. Fortunately I understood why he was "triggered" by it.
In the end, our respect for each other and the value we each placed on our friendship won the day.

 

[Israel]

Just a question.

Is intellectual dishonesty different than any other form of dishonesty=not honest=liar?

 

[WaltL1]

Just a question.

Is intellectual dishonesty different than any other form of dishonesty=not honest=liar?

As I understand the definition of intellectual dishonesty, it does not technically = telling a lie.

 

[bullethead]

I'm pretty sure most of us have very decent IQ's...so decent we are capable of being shown they mean absolutely nothing in these matters.

Just a question.
Is intellectual dishonesty different than any other form of dishonesty=not honest=liar?

Well.....

 

[Israel]

Well.....

Well...what?

 

[Israel]

As I understand the definition of intellectual dishonesty, it does not technically = telling a lie.

Then would it be contingent upon speaking from a dishonest intellect?

 

[Spotlite]

Well.....

Well...what?

Shortest replies ever to one another

 

[Israel]

Shortest replies ever to one another

I'd have to ask if that stands...because I see inclusion of two quotes. It might still be short...but shortest, I am not yet convinced.

(But I appreciate your being engaged)

 

[Spotlite]

I'd have to ask if that stands...because I see inclusion of two quotes. It might still be short...but shortest, I am not yet convinced.

(But I appreciate your being engaged)

You’re most likely correct.

On a serious note, I always get something out of reading your post - that one was just hard to pass up without throwing a little sarcasm in

 

[Israel]

You’re most likely correct.

On a serious note, I always get something out of reading your post - that one was just hard to pass up without throwing a little sarcasm in

No, you may be entirely correct!

And I didn't find it sarcastic...maybe at best only facetious...but the more important matter to me is that you are observant. Following. Engaged.

It seems I am now always pressed to seek out a consciousness that in its own true consistency...can then unbiased-ly recognizes difference. Where distinction is not at all confusing in it.

My always present caveat now, even when I most want to refuse to acknowledge or am tempted to denial "Do I only see difference because I want to?" Whose corollary is no less "Do I only seek to find same or "like"ness...only where I want to?"

Do you see how this manifestly calls for a referee's intervention?

(But that is another question altogether)

Edited with note of being edited post Spotlite's acknowledgment.