Churches - Darned if you do/don't

[Danuwoa]

Church attendance is lagging not because they demand too much of people but because they don’t demand enough. Watering themselves down and trying to be more current is why people find them meaningless.

 

[WaltL1]

I'll try an analogy of what I mean. We use paint to protect and beautify wood. Adapt might be the way it's applied or new kinds of paint. The purpose of it remains and is preserved.

Oh I understand what you mean. Let me use an anology -
Collecting military firearms. Often the stocks are dinged/gouged or the bluing is rubbed/faded away. You can fix the stock and reblue the metal thereby preserving the firearm. It still can be used as intended but you just cut the value in half because its no longer original.
Thats the angle Im coming from.

 

[ambush80]

Oh I understand what you mean. Let me use an anology -
Collecting military firearms. Often the stocks are dinged/gouged or the bluing is rubbed/faded away. You can fix the stock and reblue the metal thereby preserving the firearm. It still can be used as intended but you just cut the value in half because its no longer original.
Thats the angle Im coming from.

Going with your analogy, maybe the "value" is being determined by a non utilitarian metric. Perhaps what's more important is that it still goes bang. So should it be with religion, in my opinion.

 

[ambush80]

Going with your analogy, maybe the "value" is being determined by a non utilitarian metric. Perhaps what's more important is that it still goes bang. So should it be with religion, in my opinion.

Maybe the part that people value isn't as important as how well it functions. I guess it's what you're using it for. Is it a relic to be admired for its connection to antiquity, or do you want it to shoot well?

 

[ambush80]

Church attendance is lagging not because they demand too much of people but because they don’t demand enough. Watering themselves down and trying to be more current is why people find them meaningless.

Watering down how?

As I understand it, the most important parts are "Love God. Love your neighbor".

 

[Danuwoa]

Watering down how?

As I understand it, the most important parts are "Love God. Love your neighbor".

They are the most important. That doesn’t mean they’re all there is. And a lot falls under those two things. It doesn’t mean, “Be nice and do whatever you want.” That’s meaningless.

 

[ambush80]

They are the most important. That doesn’t mean they’re all there is. And a lot falls under those two things. It doesn’t mean, “Be nice and do whatever you want.” That’s meaningless.

I understand. But if you take a Jordan Peterson approach and think of God as "the embodiment of all things worth striving for for all time" then it changes the way one might "worship". "Love the embodiment of all that is good with all your heart". There are many proscriptions that have been culturally omitted that don't seem to affect the message.

 

[Danuwoa]

I understand. But if you take a Jordan Peterson approach and think of God as "the embodiment of all things worth striving for for all time" then it changes the way one might "worship". "Love the embodiment of all that is good with all your heart". There are many proscriptions that have been culturally omitted that don't seem to affect the message.

I like Peterson a lot but am not eye to eye with him on who God is.

 

[ambush80]

They are the most important. That doesn’t mean they’re all there is. And a lot falls under those two things. It doesn’t mean, “Be nice and do whatever you want.” That’s meaningless.

Much of it under debate across time and location. The sub-forums "upstairs" attest to this.

 

[ambush80]

I like Peterson a lot but am not eye to eye with him on who God is.

I imagine you feel that way about many people who call themselves Christians and perhaps they so with you.

 

[ambush80]

If I were to be Christian, I would be a believer in predestination because the God I read of in the Bible has absolute sovereignty over all things. I'm sure there would be Christians that disagree with me.

 

[WaltL1]

Going with your analogy, maybe the "value" is being determined by a non utilitarian metric. Perhaps what's more important is that it still goes bang. So should it be with religion, in my opinion.

How do you feel about Pastors dressed in clown suits or maybe strippers reading from the Bible at a service.
Still gets the point across
I think my position just boils down to and which Im not doing a good job conveying is -
I cant blame Christianity for acting like a business and then say they should act more like a business so they can attract more customers.

 

[BeerThirty]

I think you are seeing fewer churches because members are flocking to the larger churches that offer so much more. If you think about it, there used to be some kind of small community church everywhere you looked, every couple of miles. Now, those same churches are the ones failing because they simply can't compete with the larger, more robust churches that people are willing to drive 20-30 minutes, or more, every Sunday.

I belong to one of those larger, mega-churches. The amount of money they bring in is uncanny. But I couldn't begin to list all of the options they offer to members because it just never stops. And right, wrong or indifferent, it appeals way more to me than any of the smaller churches I've attended.

I really don't think it has anything to do with churches compromising their values or beliefs to grow their membership. This article is specifically speaking to the quantity of churches, not the membership. In theory, one large church could offset 4 smaller churches and membership could stay level.

 

[oldfella1962]

Adapt or die.

Did Ezekial 23:20-21 say "adapt or die" ? That would be pretty cool!

Anywho, yes churches/christianity in general do adapt but sometimes it's barely noticeable, and sometimes it's obvious. If you had a time machine and saw the changes generation-by-generation and century-by-century it would be amazing. Not to be a smarty-pants but christianity is EVOLVING as are other religions. And you know how evolution works....it's messy.
That means eventually christianity will become extinct like all religions/technologies/societies/species to include humans.
That's life in the big city as they say!

 

[oldfella1962]

Yeah, but it’s the liberal churches who are really taking it on the chin.

FactChecker: Are All Christian Denominations in Decline?

Many Americans, both within and outside the church, believe all denominations are in decline. But is it true? Are most denominations truly seeing a reduction in members?

www.thegospelcoalition.org

If a church abandons the historic Christian faith, the church dies.

Every christian church around today (or at any time in the last few centuries) is vastly different than the christian church in AD 100.

 

[Israel]

That appears to be age dependent.
Personally, I think stick with traditional and let the chips fall (doors close) where they may.

The mistaking of the church as having doors that can be closed (or open) is the first matter requiring informing.

I am not denigrating your comment or understanding as there are a great many who equate the presence of a building as both the church, and testimony to its presence. Neither of which is true.

 

[Israel]

Watering down how?

As I understand it, the most important parts are "Love God. Love your neighbor".

There's no place in Christ to which those will not lead. If you have any notion of the truth of those matters, regardless of how you may "feel" about them, or even be disposed to thinking of yourself relative to them...the way is lit before you.

All of what appears else besides will be shown as else besides.

 

[ambush80]

Did Ezekial 23:20-21 say "adapt or die" ? That would be pretty cool!

Anywho, yes churches/christianity in general do adapt but sometimes it's barely noticeable, and sometimes it's obvious. If you had a time machine and saw the changes generation-by-generation and century-by-century it would be amazing. Not to be a smarty-pants but christianity is EVOLVING as are other religions. And you know how evolution works....it's messy.
That means eventually christianity will become extinct like all religions/technologies/societies/species to include humans.
That's life in the big city as they say!

Finally got around to Ezekiel?

 

[ambush80]

How do you feel about Pastors dressed in clown suits or maybe strippers reading from the Bible at a service.
Still gets the point across
I think my position just boils down to and which Im not doing a good job conveying is -
I cant blame Christianity for acting like a business and then say they should act more like a business so they can attract more customers.

I would definitely check that out.

A good product sells itself.

 

[oldfella1962]

Church of God in Christ

In 1965, the CoG had 425,000 members. In 2012, the membership was 5,499,875, an increase of 1,194 percent.

I think that's success! Cog (or GOGIC as I am used to seeing it) was pretty popular with a lot of black soldiers when I was in the Army.

Anyway, maybe I missed it, but what is the definition of a "mainline" church? The article talks about conservative churches and other terms but I'm just not sure of what they consider a "mainline" church. Can somebody clear this up for me?