Converting the dying

[atlashunter]

He knew that Peter would deny him also. I know that my son is going to “forget” to take the trash off half of the time; me knowing that he will forget most times, I still tell him everyday to get it.

Knowing what someone will do and controlling them to do it are separate.

If you knew your son was going to take one of your guns and shoot himself in the head would you take any measures to prevent it or would you just stand back and watch? What would a loving father do?

 

[bullethead]

He knew that Peter would deny him also. I know that my son is going to “forget” to take the trash off half of the time; me knowing that he will forget most times, I still tell him everyday to get it.

Knowing what someone will do and controlling them to do it are separate.

Are you saying that your Son forgetting to take out the trash and all of Mankind being held accountable for a guy eating a piece of fruit (not to mention the millions upon millions of deaths due to religious beliefs) is the same?

I think difference in the repercussions of each may be a little greater than you are able to fathom.

 

[Spotlite]

If you knew your son was going to take one of your guns and shoot himself in the head would you take any measures to prevent it or would you just stand back and watch? What would a loving father do?

Absolutely. From a Christian standpoint, everyone is not a child of God. 2nd Corinthians 6, John 10, Galatians 3, etc.

Are you saying that your Son forgetting to take out the trash and all of Mankind being held accountable for a guy eating a piece of fruit (not to mention the millions upon millions of deaths due to religious beliefs) is the same?

I think difference in the repercussions of each may be a little greater than you are able to fathom.

No, at least not intentionally. I know that it’s comparing apples to oranges, my only point was that we are not robots and controlled. We can make choices.

 

[atlashunter]

Absolutely. From a Christian standpoint, everyone is not a child of God. 2nd Corinthians 6, John 10, Galatians 3, etc.

Would it have to be your child to intervene? What exactly were Adam and Eve to god, from a christian standpoint? Nothing worth protecting from his own creation apparently.

 

[bullethead]

Absolutely. From a Christian standpoint, everyone is not a child of God. 2nd Corinthians 6, John 10, Galatians 3, etc.


No, at least not intentionally. I know that it’s comparing apples to oranges, my only point was that we are not robots and controlled. We can make choices.

Im going to pretend that your god exists and that the bible story is accurate and that the god is omniscient and omnipotent just for sake of this discussion.

A god that is omniscient and omnipotent WOULD know what is going to happen before it ever happens. It would know what Adam was going to do a hundred trillion years before he created Adam. It KNOWS how the events of Adams choice is going to play out all through human existence thereafter. Your god already knows that he is going to be disappointed in his creation and he knows that he is going to drown them EONS before he ever drowns them. God KNOWS how people will act and he KNOWS and has already planned to impregnate a virgin with himself and have himself killed to save mankind from sin. He knows who is going to believe the stories and who is not. He knows who will worship him and who wont. He knows how many people will die due to sheer disagreement over his name. This was all decided and he is FINE with it.
He knows that i was going to type this before Adam was created.
He knows of every atrocity that was and will be committed in his name and he is fine with it.
He knows that he is Jesus and Jesus is he but he is FINE with Christians thinking the Jews got it wrong because the Christians somehow think that Jesus is god2.0.
If jesus is god and god is jesus believing in one is the same as believing in the other.....unless of course some writer wanted to change things and start his own religion *coughPAULcough*

If there is a god of any sort, I am quite confident that it has a warped sense of humor and revels in the idiocy of the ant farm that it created. It has GOT to be for its own amusement because the thought process of each individual of each denomination of each religion is worth EONS of entertainment.

Apples to Apples regarding preventative potential harm....You have more care and compassion for a total stranger that you've never met than your god has for his "children" that he "loves".

 

[drippin' rock]

Im going to pretend that your god exists and that the bible story is accurate and that the god is omniscient and omnipotent just for sake of this discussion.

A god that is omniscient and omnipotent WOULD know what is going to happen before it ever happens. It would know what Adam was going to do a hundred trillion years before he created Adam. It KNOWS how the events of Adams choice is going to play out all through human existence thereafter. Your god already knows that he is going to be disappointed in his creation and he knows that he is going to drown them EONS before he ever drowns them. God KNOWS how people will act and he KNOWS and has already planned to impregnate a virgin with himself and have himself killed to save mankind from sin. He knows who is going to believe the stories and who is not. He knows who will worship him and who wont. He knows how many people will die due to sheer disagreement over his name. This was all decided and he is FINE with it.
He knows that i was going to type this before Adam was created.
He knows of every atrocity that was and will be committed in his name and he is fine with it.
He knows that he is Jesus and Jesus is he but he is FINE with Christians thinking the Jews got it wrong because the Christians somehow think that Jesus is god2.0.
If jesus is god and god is jesus believing in one is the same as believing in the other.....unless of course some writer wanted to change things and start his own religion *coughPAULcough*

If there is a god of any sort, I am quite confident that it has a warped sense of humor and revels in the idiocy of the ant farm that it created. It has GOT to be for its own amusement because the thought process of each individual of each denomination of each religion is worth EONS of entertainment.

Apples to Apples regarding preventative potential harm....You have more care and compassion for a total stranger that you've never met than your god has for his "children" that he "loves".

Well, it sounds so ridiculous when you put it that way.....

 

[WaltL1]

Im going to pretend that your god exists and that the bible story is accurate and that the god is omniscient and omnipotent just for sake of this discussion.

A god that is omniscient and omnipotent WOULD know what is going to happen before it ever happens. It would know what Adam was going to do a hundred trillion years before he created Adam. It KNOWS how the events of Adams choice is going to play out all through human existence thereafter. Your god already knows that he is going to be disappointed in his creation and he knows that he is going to drown them EONS before he ever drowns them. God KNOWS how people will act and he KNOWS and has already planned to impregnate a virgin with himself and have himself killed to save mankind from sin. He knows who is going to believe the stories and who is not. He knows who will worship him and who wont. He knows how many people will die due to sheer disagreement over his name. This was all decided and he is FINE with it.
He knows that i was going to type this before Adam was created.
He knows of every atrocity that was and will be committed in his name and he is fine with it.
He knows that he is Jesus and Jesus is he but he is FINE with Christians thinking the Jews got it wrong because the Christians somehow think that Jesus is god2.0.
If jesus is god and god is jesus believing in one is the same as believing in the other.....unless of course some writer wanted to change things and start his own religion *coughPAULcough*

If there is a god of any sort, I am quite confident that it has a warped sense of humor and revels in the idiocy of the ant farm that it created. It has GOT to be for its own amusement because the thought process of each individual of each denomination of each religion is worth EONS of entertainment.

Apples to Apples regarding preventative potential harm....You have more care and compassion for a total stranger that you've never met than your god has for his "children" that he "loves".

I honestly believe the average Christian does not realize/understand or does not allow themselves to realize/understand the far reaching impact of what it would mean to be omniscient and omnipotent.
It goes a heck of a lot deeper than turning water into wine or just "knowing" what is going to happen ahead of time.

 

[Spotlite]

Would it have to be your child to intervene? What exactly were Adam and Eve to god, from a christian standpoint? Nothing worth protecting from his own creation apparently.

Im going to pretend that your god exists and that the bible story is accurate and that the god is omniscient and omnipotent just for sake of this discussion.

A god that is omniscient and omnipotent WOULD know what is going to happen before it ever happens. It would know what Adam was going to do a hundred trillion years before he created Adam. It KNOWS how the events of Adams choice is going to play out all through human existence thereafter. Your god already knows that he is going to be disappointed in his creation and he knows that he is going to drown them EONS before he ever drowns them. God KNOWS how people will act and he KNOWS and has already planned to impregnate a virgin with himself and have himself killed to save mankind from sin. He knows who is going to believe the stories and who is not. He knows who will worship him and who wont. He knows how many people will die due to sheer disagreement over his name. This was all decided and he is FINE with it.
He knows that i was going to type this before Adam was created.
He knows of every atrocity that was and will be committed in his name and he is fine with it.
He knows that he is Jesus and Jesus is he but he is FINE with Christians thinking the Jews got it wrong because the Christians somehow think that Jesus is god2.0.
If jesus is god and god is jesus believing in one is the same as believing in the other.....unless of course some writer wanted to change things and start his own religion *coughPAULcough*

If there is a god of any sort, I am quite confident that it has a warped sense of humor and revels in the idiocy of the ant farm that it created. It has GOT to be for its own amusement because the thought process of each individual of each denomination of each religion is worth EONS of entertainment.

Apples to Apples regarding preventative potential harm....You have more care and compassion for a total stranger that you've never met than your god has for his "children" that he "loves".

It’s always been about who so ever will. Would you prefer your child to choose to love you and do right or force them to?

Get away from religion for a second, our speeding laws are there for a reason, people have goofed up and will again. Do you find it humorous knowing that people will speed anyway? Do you prefer that they govern all cars at a max speed of 55 mph and force you into obeying the speed limit, or give you the choice to do right? Do you feel set up for failure when you buy a car that has 140 on the speed odometer? Did you set your kid up for failure when you gave him the keys to your car knowing that it can run 140 and he has a lead foot? Or did you let him prove himself?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I go to my closet to choose between a red and blue shirt. From the beginning of time or even before, God knew that I would choose the red shirt.
So much for freewill. Not much of a difference from predestination. I can't change the choice God knew that I would make. How could I possibly pray for God to intervene and let me choose the blue shirt? His foreknowledge would have seen that I was going to pray to choose the blue shirt and his decision would have already been made. God knows our prayers before we pray.

If I'm driving down the road and I'm suppose to be in a terrible accident and God intervenes by killing my ignition coils, he would have already known he was going to do this.
I don't see God changing his plans to meet our choices. He didn't change from plan A to plan B when Adam sinned. He already had his plan in place in the Word. The Word came and did what God's plan was. The Jews did what they did to the Word according to God's plan.

In that respect, let's say God gives man freewill but knows ahead of time who will come to Him. How could anyone else possibly come to him other than whom God already knows who will?
Looking at it in this way makes it seem less important to lead one to God as God already knows.
It's really not any different than God leading one to Jesus. Other than this way doesn't depend on man. I think that freewill may be just an allusion or perception.
We think we are in control. We blame things on God, Satan, ourselves, karma, happenstance, nature, destiny, or fate.
Maybe it's a little of all of that. Maybe it's all from God.
If it's all from God, then there is no freewill.

 

[Artfuldodger]

We may indeed have freewill but with an omniscient and omnipotent God, it doesn't account for much.
I tend to think predestination is a better plan.

But in the back of my mind I wonder why my CV axle popped out of the differential? Why did my Dad have a car wreck? Why did an earthquake kill a missionary in Haiti? Why do some believe in Oneness and others the Trinity? Why did my wife want to buy a Christmas tree with a root ball?

I wonder all of this but then read where God hardens hearts and later softens them to make his plan happen. If God did all that he does to make things happen according to his plans, how can I possibly do anything to change his plans?

 

[Spotlite]

We may indeed have freewill but with an omniscient and omnipotent God, it doesn't account for much.
I tend to think predestination is a better plan.

But in the back of my mind I wonder why my CV axle popped out of the differential? Why did my Dad have a car wreck? Why did an earthquake kill a missionary in Haiti? Why do some believe in Oneness and others the Trinity? Why did my wife want to buy a Christmas tree with a root ball?

I wonder all of this but then read where God hardens hearts and later softens them to make his plan happen. If God did all that he does to make things happen according to his plans, how can I possibly do anything to change his plans?

You’re not going to change his plans. His plans will be accomplished with or without you. It’s your choice to be in his will or not. So are you saying that knowing what a person will do means that it was predestined for that person to do that? Knowing that means that person doesn’t have a choice? I realize that this is not the best analogy but I know that my son will forget to take the trash out, does my knowing that mean that he had no choice in the matter?

 

[j_seph]

We may indeed have freewill but with an omniscient and omnipotent God, it doesn't account for much.
I tend to think predestination is a better plan.

But in the back of my mind I wonder why my CV axle popped out of the differential? Why did my Dad have a car wreck? Why did an earthquake kill a missionary in Haiti? Why do some believe in Oneness and others the Trinity? Why did my wife want to buy a Christmas tree with a root ball?

I wonder all of this but then read where God hardens hearts and later softens them to make his plan happen. If God did all that he does to make things happen according to his plans, how can I possibly do anything to change his plans?

If you personally pray, what is your prayer? If there is no freewill then why ask prayer for yourself or anyone?

 

[Spotlite]

If you personally pray, what is your prayer? If there is no freewill then why ask prayer for yourself or anyone?

Good question!!!! Prayer is pointless if free will didn’t exist.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If you personally pray, what is your prayer? If there is no freewill then why ask prayer for yourself or anyone?

I used to pray for God to change his will and intervene for me. Now I just pray for God's will to be done.
But then I must figure God's will will be done regardless of my prayer. I do think that God knows what our prayers are even before we pray.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You’re not going to change his plans. His plans will be accomplished with or without you. It’s your choice to be in his will or not. So are you saying that knowing what a person will do means that it was predestined for that person to do that? Knowing that means that person doesn’t have a choice? I realize that this is not the best analogy but I know that my son will forget to take the trash out, does my knowing that mean that he had no choice in the matter?

You are assuming or guessing that your son will not take the trash out but not on any given day. That's a little different than God having foreknowledge. He doesn't have to assume that I'll choose the red shirt. He knows that beyond any shadow of doubt that I will choose the red shirt.
Now lets return to scripture. We could start with God hardening Pharoah's heart or move ahead to when the Jews hearts were hardened to insure his Son would die on the cross. Do you really see God leaving anything up to individuals choosing? Do you see the salvation of man dependent on other men? Do you see God changing his plan to meet our choices?

Suppose Adam chose not to sin or Jesus chose not to die on the Cross. What if the Jews chose to not have their hearts hardened? Perhaps the nations against Israel could defeat them with or without God based on coincidence or fate.

Can Jesus return whenever he feels like it?

 

[Artfuldodger]

So are you saying that knowing what a person will do means that it was predestined for that person to do that?

What I'm saying is that if God knows what that person will do before they do it, it might as well be predestined. How could one possibly change what God has already seen?
God isn't restricted by time. He has already seen my choices. If I were to change that choice then he's already seen that too. If I were to pray for a change in my destiny then he has already seen that too and either granted me that change of destiny or not.
So in a way my choices were already known by God. I can't change what God has already seen. Why? Because he has already seen that change as well.
Is this somehow freewill? Is this better than predestination? Maybe in perception only.

Did God predestined Biblical events to make his plan come about? Most definitely. Did he switch from predestination to freewill after choosing the Remnant of Israel? Maybe. Does he use both systems? Perhaps.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

God sent the prophet to Ahab to tell him the kingdom would be taken from his family. Ahab prayed and God changed the timeline so that the kingdom was not removed from the family during Ahab's life, but that of his son.

Prayer can change things, but ultimately everything will fall into line with God's plans. He is not bound by time like we are.

 

[atlashunter]

It’s always been about who so ever will. Would you prefer your child to choose to love you and do right or force them to?

Get away from religion for a second, our speeding laws are there for a reason, people have goofed up and will again. Do you find it humorous knowing that people will speed anyway? Do you prefer that they govern all cars at a max speed of 55 mph and force you into obeying the speed limit, or give you the choice to do right? Do you feel set up for failure when you buy a car that has 140 on the speed odometer? Did you set your kid up for failure when you gave him the keys to your car knowing that it can run 140 and he has a lead foot? Or did you let him prove himself?

Whether they choose to have a relationship with me is really beside the point of whether I hold a gun to their head and pull the trigger based on a choice I knew they would make all along AND SET THE STAGE FOR THEM TO MAKE.

 

[atlashunter]

God sent the prophet to Ahab to tell him the kingdom would be taken from his family. Ahab prayed and God changed the timeline so that the kingdom was not removed from the family during Ahab's life, but that of his son.

Prayer can change things, but ultimately everything will fall into line with God's plans. He is not bound by time like we are.

Sent no one on behalf of the Amorites. Instead chose to wait for them to become wicked enough to justify committing genocide against them including children and infants.

 

[atlashunter]

You’re not going to change his plans. His plans will be accomplished with or without you. It’s your choice to be in his will or not. So are you saying that knowing what a person will do means that it was predestined for that person to do that? Knowing that means that person doesn’t have a choice? I realize that this is not the best analogy but I know that my son will forget to take the trash out, does my knowing that mean that he had no choice in the matter?

Part of his plan?