Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Spotlite

Senior Member
What you said sounded like an excuse as to why the writers words do not match. It seemed that when needed, you equate things which are supposedly of and by a greater power than what is available in this world with worldly things.
If something is Of God, shouldn't it be God-like also? And Constantly, not conveniently.
What is written in the bible is claimed to be THE word of god. Meaning that what is written in that book is exactly the way God absolutely intended it to be. And god chose people to do the job.
In my opinion, any believer that makes an excuse as to why something is incorrect or may be one way or the other because of human error or human ways or human capabilities, is not confident of their beliefs and then I have to question if any of it is indeed god-like and why a god would want or allow it's word to be anything other than EXACTLY as intended.
No, you just formed your own opinion of my comment - which is exactly what my statement in regard to individual perception meant.

To be more detailed in where you’re wanting go with that opinion, “moved on by the spirit” or felt led of the Lord mean the sane thing. That’s why two different preachers can take a verse and preach two different messages from it and each message give insight or direction to those in need. Neither were wrong.

An eyewitness account by two different people can and does in many cases differ in detail.,
 
No, you just formed your own opinion of my comment - which is exactly what my statement in regard to individual perception meant.

To be more detailed in where you’re wanting go with that opinion, “moved on by the spirit” or felt led of the Lord mean the sane thing. That’s why two different preachers can take a verse and preach two different messages from it and each message give insight or direction to those in need. Neither were wrong.

An eyewitness account by two different people can and does in many cases differ in detail.,
I agree that eyewitness accounts differ.
And
Differentiating eyewitness accounts is an EXTREMELY human trait.

Police will use statements from witnesses in order to put together a description of a suspect. Descriptions that vary in details do not help. Accurate details do.
In a court of law corroborating eyewitness accounts in testimony is what makes a solid case.
Each example often has problems due to the human factor.

If you are content that a god chose people who would see the same thing yet record it differently to be the official works that represent that god then so be it.
I am not that gullible or willing to overlook and make excuses for a Being and book that is supposed to be Inerrant and Infallible.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Thread starter #164
Am I going out on a limb to see that comment as finding presumptuousness not commendable?
Certainly not when it refuses to give way to evidence.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I agree that eyewitness accounts differ.
And
Differentiating eyewitness accounts is an EXTREMELY human trait.
Why are you surprised about the Bible?? It’s handwritten by men, “breathed” (inspired) by God.,

You do realize that these scriptures you’re referring to were not stated or pushed to be as exact “quotes” documented at the exact time as the events unfolded??????

When you have a spiritual understanding of scripture rather than a carnal, you realize that to “say unto this mountain be moved” is not telling anyone to go to the Rockys and pick out a mountain and tell it to move????? That’s a very simple example but you get the idea. Maybe it’s not the contradiction, most likely human perception by a reader of what they think is a contradiction.
 
Thread starter #166
I agree that eyewitness accounts differ.
And
Differentiating eyewitness accounts is an EXTREMELY human trait.

Police will use statements from witnesses in order to put together a description of a suspect. Descriptions that vary in details do not help. Accurate details do.
In a court of law corroborating eyewitness accounts in testimony is what makes a solid case.
Each example often has problems due to the human factor.

If you are content that a god chose people who would see the same thing yet record it differently to be the official works that represent that god then so be it.
I am not that gullible or willing to overlook and make excuses for a Being and book that is supposed to be Inerrant and Infallible.
Key word in all of that is corroborating. The gospels in places are verbatim copies and in other places contradict each other. Not what you’re looking for with truthful accounts of a historical event.
 
Thread starter #167
Why are you surprised about the Bible?? It’s handwritten by men, “breathed” (inspired) by God.,

You do realize that these scriptures you’re referring to were not stated or pushed to be as exact “quotes” documented at the exact time as the events unfolded??????

When you have a spiritual understanding of scripture rather than a carnal, you realize that to “say unto this mountain be moved” is not telling anyone to go to the Rockys and pick out a mountain and tell it to move????? That’s a very simple example but you get the idea.
What’s the “spiritual understanding” of Jesus last words before he died? He either said something or he didn’t. There is no spiritual understanding. Everything you understand is by way of that grey matter between your ears the same as anyone else. We either understand what the author meant to convey or we don’t. Maybe the author of the scripture about moving mountains with faith was speaking metaphorically. That can be understood without resorting to claims of special powers of “spiritual understanding”. I can accept that may have been the authors meaning but is it necessarily so? Could Jesus not literally move mountains by faith if he chose to?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
What’s the “spiritual understanding” of Jesus last words before he died? He either said something or he didn’t. There is no spiritual understanding. Everything you understand is by way of that grey matter between your ears the same as anyone else. We either understand what the author meant to convey or we don’t. Maybe the author of the scripture about moving mountains with faith was speaking metaphorically. That can be understood without resorting to claims of special powers of “spiritual understanding”. I can accept that may have been the authors meaning but is it necessarily so? Could Jesus not literally move mountains by faith if he chose to?
You’ve brought that up on this thread already, I didn’t address it the first time because its a question without detailed reference.

Compare Jesus’s last words and let’s see what you got. Show us if they’re quotes, eyewitnesses account, etc.

Yes he could move a literal mountain but what good is that? A spiritual mountain could be your carnal thinking??? What more can be accomplished by removing that.

There’s definitely spiritual understanding of the Word. It doesn’t take or have anything to do with special powers lol.

No offense meant to any non believers but I’m still humored by the descriptions they apply (special powers).

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, just know that skepticism doesn’t mean you’re correct.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Certainly not when it refuses to give way to evidence.
That sounds to my ear that presumptuousness is not unwarranted in the presence of some (or abundance) of evidence?
 
Why are you surprised about the Bible?? It’s handwritten by men, “breathed” (inspired) by God.,

You do realize that these scriptures you’re referring to were not stated or pushed to be as exact “quotes” documented at the exact time as the events unfolded??????

When you have a spiritual understanding of scripture rather than a carnal, you realize that to “say unto this mountain be moved” is not telling anyone to go to the Rockys and pick out a mountain and tell it to move????? That’s a very simple example but you get the idea. Maybe it’s not the contradiction, most likely human perception by a reader of what they think is a contradiction.
I understand the bible and take it for exactly what it is. Not an ounce more.
 
You’ve brought that up on this thread already, I didn’t address it the first time because its a question without detailed reference.

Compare Jesus’s last words and let’s see what you got. Show us if they’re quotes, eyewitnesses account, etc.

Yes he could move a literal mountain but what good is that? A spiritual mountain could be your carnal thinking??? What more can be accomplished by removing that.

There’s definitely spiritual understanding of the Word. It doesn’t take or have anything to do with special powers lol.

No offense meant to any non believers but I’m still humored by the descriptions they apply (special powers).

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, just know that skepticism doesn’t mean you’re correct.
So, who's word is "The Word"?
Man's or Gods?
 
Why are you surprised about the Bible?? It’s handwritten by men, “breathed” (inspired) by God.,
Absolutely in no way am I surprised by the bible.

You do realize that these scriptures you’re referring to were not stated or pushed to be as exact “quotes” documented at the exact time as the events unfolded??????
Then why do people take them seriously? Why do you obey the words?

When you have a spiritual understanding of scripture rather than a carnal, you realize that to “say unto this mountain be moved” is not telling anyone to go to the Rockys and pick out a mountain and tell it to move????? That’s a very simple example but you get the idea. Maybe it’s not the contradiction, most likely human perception by a reader of what they think is a contradiction.
I can perceive a contradiction when there are 4 different accounts of very specific events that are to be considered as The Word of what is supposed to be the greatest Deity.
Maybe to you the accuracy of who was at the grave, or in the tomb or number of guards or what Jesus said is not important.
You are making a great case that spiritual understanding and religious blinders are one in the same.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Absolutely in no way am I surprised by the bible.


Then why do people take them seriously? Why do you obey the words?


I can perceive a contradiction when there are 4 different accounts of very specific events.
Because you’re missing one important factor - the spiritual aspect.
Again, go into detail of the specific events, use the one Atlas is referring to and then explain how you know that Jesus didn’t say all, most or none of the things considered his last words. He could have said them all???? Did any Writer say they quoted the entire conversation of Jesus verbatim???
How do you know he didn’t say all of it?? A lot of things such as that, you only assume, yet you’re convinced they’re contradictory??
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
So, who's word is "The Word"?
Man's or Gods?
IF you did look at this in your own carnal way of thinking, you’d understand that understanding the Bible has more to do with just knowing what a sentence says.
 
Because you’re missing one important factor - the spiritual aspect.
Again, go into detail of the specific events, use the one Atlas is referring to and then explain how you know that Jesus didn’t say all, most or none of the things considered his last words. He could have said them all???? Did any Writer say they quoted the entire conversation of Jesus verbatim???
A lot of things such as that, you only assume, yet you’re convinced they’re contradictory??
They say "and with his last breath, final words, etc" and then they mention his supposed words. How else can last words be interpreted?
 
IF you did look at this in your own carnal way of thinking, you’d understand that understanding the Bible has more to do with just knowing what a sentence says.
Yeah if I bought the bull snort I'd think differently....well no duh!
 
IF you did look at this in your own carnal way of thinking, you’d understand that understanding the Bible has more to do with just knowing what a sentence says.
Actually I don't agree with what you are saying at all. You should get that same understanding from all spiritual books if you truly had any sort of special understanding.
 
Thread starter #178
You’ve brought that up on this thread already, I didn’t address it the first time because its a question without detailed reference.

Compare Jesus’s last words and let’s see what you got. Show us if they’re quotes, eyewitnesses account, etc.

Yes he could move a literal mountain but what good is that? A spiritual mountain could be your carnal thinking??? What more can be accomplished by removing that.

There’s definitely spiritual understanding of the Word. It doesn’t take or have anything to do with special powers lol.

No offense meant to any non believers but I’m still humored by the descriptions they apply (special powers).

Nothing wrong with being skeptical, just know that skepticism doesn’t mean you’re correct.
What detailed reference does the question require? It’s a very simple question. You’re avoiding it because the answer depends on which gospel you read.

What’s the point of the literal moving of a mountain? Well it would be a pretty powerful demonstration of faith for starters. What was the point of making a fig tree whither and die for not bearing figs out of season? The claims of miracles that defy laws of nature are numerous so why should anyone conclude that moving a literal mountain would be outside of what should be expected of faith? And if Jesus could do it why can’t his followers?
 
Thread starter #179
That sounds to my ear that presumptuousness is not unwarranted in the presence of some (or abundance) of evidence?
When’s the last time you offered this lecture to your young earth creationist brethren?
 
Thread starter #180
IF you did look at this in your own carnal way of thinking, you’d understand that understanding the Bible has more to do with just knowing what a sentence says.
So answer the question.
 
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