Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Why was he born a Jew? Why did God choose a certain nation was my point. Why not China? Why did he choose any nation? Why make Christianity about one nation if we were all just gonna get to be grafted in later?
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How do you define “sin”?
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
My main point about Romans 11 is, well let's start with Romans 9;
4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
and on into genealogy and election.
13 So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
All this coincides with the Old Testament.
Moving on to Romans 11 and the difference I see is that God orchestrated the whole plan. He didn't leave anything in His plan of Salvation up to chance. In Romans 11, he hardened the hearts of the Jews. It explains the purpose of the Law and Israel within God's plan.
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
Romans 11 is the fulfillment or plan or God's mercy as mentioned in Romans 9:18. It has to be this way because God said so.
Romans 9:15
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!
4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
and on into genealogy and election.
13 So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
All this coincides with the Old Testament.
Moving on to Romans 11 and the difference I see is that God orchestrated the whole plan. He didn't leave anything in His plan of Salvation up to chance. In Romans 11, he hardened the hearts of the Jews. It explains the purpose of the Law and Israel within God's plan.
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
Romans 11 is the fulfillment or plan or God's mercy as mentioned in Romans 9:18. It has to be this way because God said so.
Romans 9:15
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!
Because Christianity at its heart is an ancient Hebrew religion that was taken from them and adapted to other cultures. It is inseparable from its roots, just as you couldn't separate Hinduism completely from India and have it retain its flavor and core values.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I don't see how someone can teach what they know about the Law and Israel, if they don't see what God's plan was for the Law and Israel to begin with. If one can't see what God's purpose of the Law and Israel was and is, how can you teach?
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Do you think the New Testament was someone or group of someones reading the Old Testament and finishing the story to suit the needs of what that group needed?
I mean it seems to fit the foretold narrative of the Old Testament which would be easy to write having read the Old Testament.
If so, it doesn't seem like it was well thought out. Like the different Gospel accounts and then Paul comes along and goes back and forth more than I do,lol. If it did happen I think it happened over many years and then they took all to the new stories and tried to make them fit the narrative.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I'm just saying a lot of the Old Testament was about the future coming of a Messiah and King. The New Testament is about the coming of that Messiah and King. Just that it didn't quite fit the Old Testament prophesy the way a lot of folks thought it should.
Yes. It is quite disjointed and contradictory.
Jesus turned out to be a hippie instead of a Moses-like figure, and the Pharisees didn't much like it.
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