I couldn't help it

[WaltL1]

I'm only interested in what belief in "judgement" does to people here and now. Like I said before, most people apply the lie in such a way that it makes them more tolerable members of society, but not always.

Yes, now that society has taken the bullets out of their guns they make pretty darn good neighbors

 

[ambush80]

Yes, now that society has taken the bullets out of their guns they make pretty darn good neighbors

There's always room for improvement but for the most part I haven't much except for philosophical disagreement with them. I really don't care that my new neighbor thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old. He and his wife have accepted the secular atmosphere of the neighborhood they've moved into and have adapted well. They haven't called the cops on us....yet.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

You believe Jesus is the Son of God.
"He" believes Jesus is the Son of God.
You believe you were pre-chosen to believe that.
"He" believes ANYBODY can come to believe that.
Despite the fact you both believe Jesus is the Son of God, there are HUGE implications in the differences in your beliefs.
So for the 3rd time I ask -
You both believe Jesus is the Son of God. So what?
Does that erase the huge implications in the differences of your beliefs?

Yes as far a me and welder being saved goes and that's the most important part for us individually. However the difference has vast implications. Just 1 example: Because I believe in free will and the potential for anyone and everyone to be saved, it's imperative to me to spread the gospel. However many who believe in predestination say what's the point? God is gonna save who he has already decided on and the others will perish so why do I need to bother telling anyone. That difference doesn't affect our salvation, but it dang well ma affect yours. Hope this helps.

 

[ambush80]

Yes as far a me and welder being saved goes and that's the most important part for us individually. However the difference has vast implications. Just 1 example: Because I believe in free will and the potential for anyone and everyone to be saved, it's imperative to me to spread the gospel. However many who believe in predestination say what's the point? God is gonna save who he has already decided on and the others will perish so why do I need to bother telling anyone. That difference doesn't affect our salvation, but it dang well ma affect yours. Hope this helps.

Those who believe in predestination spread the word because they are instructed to, even to Vessels of Wrath. Besides, they can't help it. (That one's for you Gem, if you're out there).

Actually, they might say that you or a pastor believe that you and they have the ability to influence people to Christ by word or deed, like His PR agent. Sounds heretical to me.

 

[Israel]

Those who believe in predestination spread the word because they are instructed to, even to Vessels of Wrath. Besides, they can't help it. (That one's for you Gem, if you're out there).

Actually, they might say that you or a pastor believe that you and they have the ability to influence people to Christ by word or deed, like His PR agent. Sounds heretical to me.

What a man can be argued into...he most assuredly can be argued out of.

 

[ambush80]

What a man can be argued into...he most assuredly can be argued out of.

Irrational people can't be reasoned with.

 

[welderguy]

Yes as far a me and welder being saved goes and that's the most important part for us individually. However the difference has vast implications. Just 1 example: Because I believe in free will and the potential for anyone and everyone to be saved, it's imperative to me to spread the gospel. However many who believe in predestination say what's the point? God is gonna save who he has already decided on and the others will perish so why do I need to bother telling anyone. That difference doesn't affect our salvation, but it dang well ma affect yours. Hope this helps.

I believe that for the most part you are sincere in your wanting everyone to know and come to Christ. That is not really a problem for me because in a way, I do too. BUT, here's a problem that I have noticed, that you may not see in yourself. Whenever you meet with resistance to your spreading of the gospel, you seem to get indignant toward the person to the point of eventually condemning them. You try to press them into your mold, and when they won't conform, you seem to take it personal.

To me, that is a pretense of love, under the guise of sincerity, when in the end is revealed as hypocrisy.

Another biggy for me is that when you take it upon yourself to carry the burden of other men's salvation, you are robbing God of His glory. Salvation is of the Lord, not man. He is the author and finisher of our faith, not man. No man cometh to Him unless the Father draw him..,not man.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I believe that for the most part you are sincere in your wanting everyone to know and come to Christ. That is not really a problem for me because in a way, I do too.

Sorry. I can't relate to that. Again, what I don't get is if you believe you can have NO bearing on another coming to Christ why bother coming down here and talking about Him. Why bother telling ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTHING about him? He's gonna save who he wants and burn the rest and there's nothing you can do about it one way or the other. It's all him. Which brings up another problem I have with determinism.....it makes God a sadistic author of evil just as these guys say.

As far as robbing God of his glory, it's sharing in his Glory. Never heard a believer anywhere attribute his salvation to another person, but it's a wonderful experience for me every time I see someone saved whether I was a small part of it or not. Isn't the whole purpose of mankind to share in Gods glory and to be an object of his affection reflecting the effects of his glory back to him. Isn't that in essence exactly what evangelism is.

 

[WaltL1]

I believe that for the most part you are sincere in your wanting everyone to know and come to Christ. That is not really a problem for me because in a way, I do too. BUT, here's a problem that I have noticed, that you may not see in yourself. Whenever you meet with resistance to your spreading of the gospel, you seem to get indignant toward the person to the point of eventually condemning them. You try to press them into your mold, and when they won't conform, you seem to take it personal.

To me, that is a pretense of love, under the guise of sincerity, when in the end is revealed as hypocrisy.

Another biggy for me is that when you take it upon yourself to carry the burden of other men's salvation, you are robbing God of His glory. Salvation is of the Lord, not man. He is the author and finisher of our faith, not man. No man cometh to Him unless the Father draw him..,not man.

Just a couple comments because you made some interesting observations -

that is a pretense of love, under the guise of sincerity, when in the end is revealed as hypocrisy.

This is how I/we view much of the "story".

No man cometh to Him unless the Father draw him..,not man

Yet millions have been spent, cultures altered, other cultures religious beliefs wiped out, generations indoctrinated from childhood, people murdered..........
Not just by men. By Christian men. With the Church's approval, with the Church's direction........
Under the guise of bringing men to Him.......

revealed as hypocrisy.

Indeed.

 

[WaltL1]

Sorry. I can't relate to that. Again, what I don't get is if you believe you can have NO bearing on another coming to Christ why bother coming down here and talking about Him. Why bother telling ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTHING about him? He's gonna save who he wants and burn the rest and there's nothing you can do about it one way or the other. It's all him. Which brings up another problem I have with determinism.....it makes God a sadistic author of evil just as these guys say.

As far as robbing God of his glory, it's sharing in his Glory. Never heard a believer anywhere attribute his salvation to another person, but it's a wonderful experience for me every time I see someone saved whether I was a small part of it or not. Isn't the whole purpose of mankind to share in Gods glory and to be an object of his affection reflecting the effects of his glory back to him. Isn't that in essence exactly what evangelism is.

Which brings up another problem I have with determinism.....it makes God a sadistic author of evil just as these guys say.

Its not just determinism.
Right off the bat you have a God who drowned unborn babies, innocent children, women, men because they didn't act right. And supposedly he knew they weren't going to act right before he created them. And, as God, he certainly could have dealt with that situation in a number of ways. But he chose a little swim for his beloved children........
Plenty of "sadistic author of evil" stuff to go around.

 

[ambush80]

Sorry. I can't relate to that. Again, what I don't get is if you believe you can have NO bearing on another coming to Christ why bother coming down here and talking about Him. Why bother telling ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTHING about him? He's gonna save who he wants and burn the rest and there's nothing you can do about it one way or the other. It's all him. Which brings up another problem I have with determinism.....it makes God a sadistic author of evil just as these guys say.

As far as robbing God of his glory, it's sharing in his Glory. Never heard a believer anywhere attribute his salvation to another person, but it's a wonderful experience for me every time I see someone saved whether I was a small part of it or not. Isn't the whole purpose of mankind to share in Gods glory and to be an object of his affection reflecting the effects of his glory back to him. Isn't that in essence exactly what evangelism is.

I defend the position that Welder takes because it is logically consistent. An omniscient God only allows for predestination. That means that all the suffering, Earthy and eternal is part of God's plan; true sovereignty. All things to his glory: disfigured children, rape, cannibalism, starvation, torture, ISIS, Satan, He11. If I were to be a Christian, this would be the only way that I can accept that these things exist. Trust and obey.

Thankfully, I am not a Christian and the fact that these things exist is perfectly understandable to me (with the exception of He11).

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

Sorry. I can't relate to that. Again, what I don't get is if you believe you can have NO bearing on another coming to Christ why bother coming down here and talking about Him. Why bother telling ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTHING about him?

When I plant a seed in the garden, I can water it all I want.

Only God can make it germinate and grow.

 

[ambush80]

Its not just determinism.
Right off the bat you have a God who drowned unborn babies, innocent children, women, men because they didn't act right. And supposedly he knew they weren't going to act right before he created them. And, as God, he certainly could have dealt with that situation in a number of ways. But he chose a little swim for his beloved children........
Plenty of "sadistic author of evil" stuff to go around.

Although you and I wouldn't act that way or do the things the Christian God does, I can accept the rationalization that God has a plan for all the rape, murder, and suffering that we can't fathom. It's the only way to be able keep worshiping such a being.

"He only hits me when he's drunk".

 

[ambush80]

Honestly believers, if you were in charge would you do things the way that God does?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

When I plant a seed in the garden, I can water it all I want.

Only God can make it germinate and grow.

Yes, but are we not commissioned with planting?

 

[ambush80]

When I plant a seed in the garden, I can water it all I want.

Only God can make it germinate and grow.

That's hardly compelling. Let's see a seed grow into a rabbit.

 

[ambush80]

Yes, but are we not commissioned with planting?

You are to cast your seed far and wide. Some of it will fall on rocky soil, as it was intended from the beginning of time.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

Yes, but are we not commissioned with planting?

Yes, and an over worked field will do nothing but erode before the seed can germinate.

The Commission without proper application of the Great Commandment is nothing more than failed attempts at beating someone into submission. It rarely if ever succeeds and turns more away from God than towards him.

 

[ambush80]

Yes, and an over worked field will do nothing but erode before the seed can germinate.

The Commission without proper application of the Great Commandment is nothing more than failed attempts at beating someone into submission. It rarely if ever succeeds and turns more away from God than towards him.

The best testimony or argument for the utility of Christianity I've ever seen is how Christians behave towards others. It doesn't always manifest and I've seen similar results from secular, rational pursuit. But being saved isn't about utility. It's about

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

The best testimony or argument for the utility of Christianity I've ever seen is how Christians behave towards others. It doesn't always manifest and I've seen similar results from secular, rational pursuit. But utility isn't what being saved is about. It's about

In your opinion.