Paul's struggle of two natures.

[hobbs27]

This came up in another thread and I think it is worthy of study. I have a different view of Paul's struggle than most, and for reason.

Apparently the common view is Paul's struggle mentioned in Romans is that of an internal struggle of any Christian against indwelling sin.

My understanding of Paul's struggle and the scripture associated with this, is Paul is discussing the public buffeting of the Christian against external persecution.
Paul is addressing the futility of man under law, Torah Romans 7:6. Paul is not discussing the futility of the Christian experience, in fact Paul exults victory over indwelling sin.. Roman's 7:25-8:1f.

So Paul's reference is about the Jew coming out of the old covenant... And the struggle to stay in the New with the persecution they were receiving.

What say you?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Do we have other scriptures to compare man's struggle with the dual nature?

 

[welderguy]

The Corinthian church is an example of the old nature's​ influence on children of God. Paul addresses them as saints "in Christ"(1 Cor.1:2). But he also says they are carnal(1 Cor.3:3), and admonishes them accordingly.

We know that "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature..."(2 Cor.5:17)
But even when we are "in Christ", it's possible to walk carnally.
I know this firsthand in my own experience. I've got the scars to prove it.

 

[gordon 2]

This came up in another thread and I think it is worthy of study. I have a different view of Paul's struggle than most, and for reason.

Apparently the common view is Paul's struggle mentioned in Romans is that of an internal struggle of any Christian against indwelling sin.

My understanding of Paul's struggle and the scripture associated with this, is Paul is discussing the public buffeting of the Christian against external persecution.
Paul is addressing the futility of man under law, Torah Romans 7:6. Paul is not discussing the futility of the Christian experience, in fact Paul exults victory over indwelling sin.. Roman's 7:25-8:1f.

So Paul's reference is about the Jew coming out of the old covenant... And the struggle to stay in the New with the persecution they were receiving.

What say you?

I don't know how you do it, but you read into scripture an uncommon rewrite of Christian history and spirituality. And I think you admit this. Which makes you honest which is good-- and yet I think misguided.

Simply we die in this world, that is the bodies of all of creation die. Now since our bodies die are they not still captured by the effects of sin? And if they are... than sin is at work in the makeup of saints.

Although we are deemed saved and righteous for being in Christ... our bodies are still in the curse. And the pain can have differing influences on how we walk in Christ.

Now it is easy for me to say this today because I have a possible a tooth abscess and it is sure testing my righteousness. Let me describe it a little. The pain starts at my left canine raises up to my cheek bone runs behind my ear and then falls back into my left gums from where it raises to my mid pallet. It is a shooting pain...which shoots pain like a slow first world war machine gun. It is like a quarter of my skull is on fire.

Now I have a appointment at the dentist tomorrow. I will be paying for a cure. I am, for now, popping pain med which is great for all the people selling them.

Now this is the plan: I'm going to kill the tooth that caused the issue before it kills the whole body. I understand that in a world of death to loose a member is better that to loose the whole body... which is possibly what I would loose living just a few decades and definitely a few centuries ago--baring a miracle.


The torn in my mouth... keeps me grounded about what is and what is not--yet.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I have a different view of Paul's struggle......What say you?

I say for one willing to build an entire theology around his personal eisegesis of scripture regarding eschatology, why do our opinions matter. Honestly. If you don't value the words of the Holy Spirit. Apostles, and early church fathers why ask for ours?

 

[hobbs27]

I say for one willing to build an entire theology around his personal eisegesis of scripture regarding eschatology, why do our opinions matter. Honestly. If you don't value the words of the Holy Spirit. Apostles, and early church fathers why ask for ours?

I enjoy conversing with brothers and taking the stripes from others.

 

[hobbs27]

I don't know how you do it, but you read into scripture an uncommon rewrite of Christian history and spirituality. And I think you admit this. Which makes you honest which is good-- and yet I think misguided.

Simply we die in this world, that is the bodies of all of creation die. Now since our bodies die are they not still captured by the effects of sin? And if they are... than sin is at work in the makeup of saints.

Although we are deemed saved and righteous for being in Christ... our bodies are still in the curse. And the pain can have differing influences on how we walk in Christ.

Now it is easy for me to say this today because I have a possible a tooth abscess and it is sure testing my righteousness. Let me describe it a little. The pain starts at my left canine raises up to my cheek bone runs behind my ear and then falls back into my left gums from where it raises to my mid pallet. It is a shooting pain...which shoots pain like a slow first world war machine gun. It is like a quarter of my skull is on fire.

Now I have a appointment at the dentist tomorrow. I will be paying for a cure. I am, for now, popping pain med which is great for all the people selling them.

Now this is the plan: I'm going to kill the tooth that caused the issue before it kills the whole body. I understand that in a world of death to loose a member is better that to loose the whole body... which is possibly what I would loose living just a few decades and definitely a few centuries ago--baring a miracle.


The torn in my mouth... keeps me grounded about what is and what is not--yet.

I assure you I am not reading into scripture, but receiving what scripture is providing.
I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical.


Romans 7:6New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

See.. Paul had by faith accepted Christ, this gave him Liberty from the law... He died to the law. Which was flesh/ carnal/ physical
He was made alive in Spirit by faith in Christ.. IE. He was in the New covenant.

Now... Please explain how this is eisegesis and not exegesis.

 

[welderguy]

Eph.4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


This is something we have been given liberty to strive for every day. It's what we've been called to do.

 

[hobbs27]

Eph.4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


This is something we have been given liberty to strive for every day. It's what we've been called to do.

So.. When we put on the new man which is created in righteousness... Are we also putting off the old.... Or are we putting new wine into an old bottle. So to speak?

 

[hobbs27]

Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins

 

[gordon 2]

Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins

Without going back to ref. I always assumed this was about gentiles and jews....???

 

[gordon 2]

Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins

Again jews-gentiles?

 

[hummerpoo]

I assure you I am not reading into scripture, but receiving what scripture is providing.
I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical.


Romans 7:6New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

See.. Paul had by faith accepted Christ, this gave him Liberty from the law... He died to the law. Which was flesh/ carnal/ physical
He was made alive in Spirit by faith in Christ.. IE. He was in the New covenant.

Now... Please explain how this is eisegesis and not exegesis.

That has been tried many times.

Try reading The Whole of CH. 7 ten times each day, asking God for understanding. Don't quit for 1000 days.

Alternatively, find a group specializing in reverse brainwashing.

 

[gordon 2]

I assure you I am not reading into scripture, but receiving what scripture is providing.
I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical.


Romans 7:6New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

See.. Paul had by faith accepted Christ, this gave him Liberty from the law... He died to the law. Which was flesh/ carnal/ physical
He was made alive in Spirit by faith in Christ.. IE. He was in the New covenant.

Now... Please explain how this is eisegesis and not exegesis.

I'm not sure Paul meant it this way. Dying to the law is not "flesh/carnal/physical". It is that which points to flesh as being contaminated which in turn orients the spirit towards sticks and stones in lieu of carrots. Perhaps, Maybe? Dying to this simply means the orientation is opposite--carrots... but it does not mean that sin is rid as a motivator in our world now? Even the greatest of saints... are troubled by inner motives, yours and mine and their own.
Hum...????

The law is there for lost people in a lost world. It does not follow to me that salvation, for now, takes away the effects of sin in the world we are in now. And since the effects of sin are present in the world we are in, these effects continue to deceive and tempt many... including the greatest saints who complain the most of their personal sins.... which to many seem so negligible ????

 

[hobbs27]

That has been tried many times.

Try reading The Whole of CH. 7 ten times each day, asking God for understanding. Don't quit for 1000 days.

Alternatively, find a group specializing in reverse brainwashing.

Lol.. I wish I could find that group for all the futurist that blatantly deny the clear message in Luke 21!

 

[hummerpoo]

Lol.. I wish I could find that group for all the futurist that blatantly deny the clear message in Luke 21!

I sincerely hope that more effort will be put into Rm. 7 than the futurists.

 

[welderguy]

So.. When we put on the new man which is created in righteousness... Are we also putting off the old.... Or are we putting new wine into an old bottle. So to speak?

The wine and bottle text is speaking of the Spirit(new wine) dwelling in a new creature(2 Cor.5:17).

But, this new creature still has the flesh to contend with daily.

Gal.5:17
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[hobbs27]

I sincerely hope that more effort will be put into Rm. 7 than the futurists.

Sure, tell you what, I'll read Roman's 7 ten times each day asking God for understanding (always do anyhow) for 1000 days if you do the same with Luke 21.. Then we can both talk about futurist.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hobbs, disregarding what Paul thought, do people who are born of the Spirit still sin? I know these sins aren't counted against us and the Holy Spirit still helps us, but do we still sin?

 

[hobbs27]

Hobbs, disregarding what Paul thought, do people who are born of the Spirit still sin? I know these sins aren't counted against us and the Holy Spirit still helps us, but do we still sin?

Yes, we still sin... But it's not a struggle, we aren't natural sinners, we are children of God.

We have one commandment.. Love one another. Sometimes we do not do this, but we don't struggle within ourselves as children of God.. We don't have hate in us as children of God, and God deals with us as we fail to represent Him.
In short.. There is no longer imputed sin, or original sin that brought death in the day Adam took of the fruit.