Artfuldodger
Senior Member
You gather all this from just Paul or other scripture as well?
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Paul's struggle of two natures.
- Thread starter hobbs27
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You gather all this from just Paul or other scripture as well?
hobbs27
Senior Member
Mostly Paul but others too. I think a lot of folks miss the fact that Adam died in the day that he took of the fruit.. Therefore they mistake the nature of sin death for physical death... I often wonder, if God made Adam in a state of everlasting life unlike we are... Why was there a tree of life in the garden?
hobbs27
Senior Member
Here's a copy from the NKJV.. Notice there are three headlines and all three are about the law.
Freed from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of
Freed from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of
hobbs27
Senior Member
Roman's 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time[1st Century.. Hobbs] are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to [About to... Mello ..Hobbs ] be revealed to us.
YLT Young's Literal Translation
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Something was about to be revealed in them and it would end the suffering.
YLT Young's Literal Translation
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Something was about to be revealed in them and it would end the suffering.
Israel
BANNED
I find agreement in that.
Paul was not describing a struggle, but a matter of fact.
God is not relatable through points of law, but only through relationship as Father to son.
This is and was (as I presently am able to receive) as much the constitution of Jesus ministry as being the final sacrifice for sin.
The "thing" that would seek to offer "of itself" some sacrifice in approach, and for approach to God...is always, and only referred to Jesus Christ's submission and obedience as the only sufficiency. And here find one is either "in, or out" of relationship.
"When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..."
This is part and parcel of what the believer receives as inheritance in faith and of faith. Our "own" souls testify against us in the light of the spirit should we try to make them the basis of satisfying our Father. God is pleased to save the soul, for mercy is that in which he delights, but, or rather, and, this salvation is revealed from out of the spirit only of that man in whom Christ Jesus, the life giving spirit, reigns as Lord.
What we have in spirit as sons through the faith of Jesus Christ, is being made known to the soul...to its salvation. The spirit knows, the soul is in learning.
But there is also a "finding out" the soul encounters in its informing...of the matter of "law". Both Jew and gentile soul, man and woman soul are in this, all alike. The soul does not want to "give up ground" (figuratively and literally) to spirit. And so it finds itself at times, very much occupied with wanting to make trades...and back to law. "if I do this...then "I" keep my place of reign"
But the Spirit reigns in the believer, and will not, does not surrender its place of ascension over all.
I believe this is a good part of what Paul found, probably in some measure to his surprise, how ingrained the principle of law is in the soul of all, and why he was vexed that even gentiles would find themselves in a place of enticement to "take on" law as a suitable means of relationship...even to those things of which they had seemingly never been previously called to.
"If while seeking to be justified in Christ I find myself a sinner, does that make Christ a minister of sin? God forbid!" It is here, as in the seeking we are made aware of the strength of this "principle of law"...of trying to present "of ourselves" a goodness to satisfy God for approach, we may be finding ourselves abandoning the first hope in temptation to succomb to the weak and beggarly elements of "taste not, touch not". We must and will, by grace's wonderful impelling to see Jesus Christ in fullness, overcome these things...but I dare say, they are indeed those things of which every soul discovers...a thing wanting to dissuade from grace to a something else in misapprehension that by these the soul may yet live "of itself".
Am I speaking to air? God knows.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Come-on! This does not square with scripture. It is an idea you have... but it is not scriptural.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Gen. 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Genesis 3:22-23
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Everyone is lost but you and your pedagogues.
I've never said such. I think everyone disagrees on scripture.... Unless they belong to a very controlling denomination.
As you clearly demonstrate.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Roman's 7:1 7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
Paul is speaking specifically to Jews here.. Those that knew the law..
Paul is speaking specifically to Jews here.. Those that knew the law..
hobbs27
Senior Member
Romans 7: 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God
Again... Specifically to the Jew... This has a familiar ring to it.
Galatians 4: 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Again... Specifically to the Jew... This has a familiar ring to it.
Galatians 4: 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
When you say "written specifically to the Jew", I get the feeling that you don't include spiritual Jews. I think if this is your view, you should reconsider the deeper meaning of it.
You and I are spiritual Jews.(Rom.2:29)
hobbs27
Senior Member
This is true, but were you or I ever of the law... Torah to be more specific? We must be honest to the scriptures.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Commentary
Matthew Henry Commentary
7:1-6 So long as a man continues under the law as a covenant, and seeks justification by his own obedience, he continues the slave of sin in some form. Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death. Believers are delivered from that power of the law, which condemns for the sins committed by them. And they are delivered from that power of the law which stirs up and provokes the sin that dwells in them.
I can see this but somehow I feel as if I still sin even with the burden lifted by the Holy Spirit. It still feels like a struggle. It still feels like my spiritual nature duals with my fleshy nature.
Even though my sins were washed. For some reason I still have a natural desire to sin. I have to fight really hard to overcome. Maybe it's just easier for some than others.
Matthew Henry Commentary
7:1-6 So long as a man continues under the law as a covenant, and seeks justification by his own obedience, he continues the slave of sin in some form. Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death. Believers are delivered from that power of the law, which condemns for the sins committed by them. And they are delivered from that power of the law which stirs up and provokes the sin that dwells in them.
I can see this but somehow I feel as if I still sin even with the burden lifted by the Holy Spirit. It still feels like a struggle. It still feels like my spiritual nature duals with my fleshy nature.
Even though my sins were washed. For some reason I still have a natural desire to sin. I have to fight really hard to overcome. Maybe it's just easier for some than others.
See, that's just it. The text did not specify Torah. You did.
You seem to only see the literal, which is the type of the spiritual. And thus you miss the deeper meaning, which is meant for ALL God's people(spiritual Jews).
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I would agree that Paul is addressing the Jews of Rome. I would also agree that sin has no dominion over Christians just as the Law has no dominion over Jews.
Perhaps it is a parallel that Paul is teaching by using those that know the Law as an example.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Know ye not, brethren,.... The apostle having asserted, Romans 6:14, that the believing Romans were "not under the law"; which he knew would be displeasing to many, and excepted to by them, especially the Jews that were among them, who though they believed in Christ, yet were zealous of the law, takes it up again, and explains and defends it. That they were the Jewish converts at Rome he here particularly addresses, appears partly from his calling them "brethren", for they were so according to the flesh, as well as in a spiritual relation, and this he rather mentions to soften their resentments, and conciliate their minds to him; and partly from the words included in a parenthesis,
Barne's notes;
For I speak to them ... - Probably the apostle refers here more particularly to the Jewish members of the Roman church, who were qualified particularly to understand the nature of the Law, and to appreciate the argument. That there were many Jews in the church at Rome has been shown (see Introduction); but the illustration has no exclusive reference to them. The Law to which he appeals is sufficiently general to make the illustration intelligible to all people.
Benson Commentary
Romans 7:1-3. Know ye not, brethren — The apostle, having shown that justified and regenerated persons are free from the dominion of sin, shows here that they are also free from the yoke of the Mosaic law, it being dead to them, Romans 7:6; and they to it, Romans 7:4 : for I speak to them that know the law — To the Jews or proselytes chiefly here; that the law — The Mosaic dispensation in general, to which you were espoused by Moses; hath dominion over a man — Over a Jew married to it, and engaged to observe it; as long as he — Rather, as long as it liveth; that is, abideth in force, and no longer.
Perhaps it is a parallel that Paul is teaching by using those that know the Law as an example.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Know ye not, brethren,.... The apostle having asserted, Romans 6:14, that the believing Romans were "not under the law"; which he knew would be displeasing to many, and excepted to by them, especially the Jews that were among them, who though they believed in Christ, yet were zealous of the law, takes it up again, and explains and defends it. That they were the Jewish converts at Rome he here particularly addresses, appears partly from his calling them "brethren", for they were so according to the flesh, as well as in a spiritual relation, and this he rather mentions to soften their resentments, and conciliate their minds to him; and partly from the words included in a parenthesis,
Barne's notes;
For I speak to them ... - Probably the apostle refers here more particularly to the Jewish members of the Roman church, who were qualified particularly to understand the nature of the Law, and to appreciate the argument. That there were many Jews in the church at Rome has been shown (see Introduction); but the illustration has no exclusive reference to them. The Law to which he appeals is sufficiently general to make the illustration intelligible to all people.
Benson Commentary
Romans 7:1-3. Know ye not, brethren — The apostle, having shown that justified and regenerated persons are free from the dominion of sin, shows here that they are also free from the yoke of the Mosaic law, it being dead to them, Romans 7:6; and they to it, Romans 7:4 : for I speak to them that know the law — To the Jews or proselytes chiefly here; that the law — The Mosaic dispensation in general, to which you were espoused by Moses; hath dominion over a man — Over a Jew married to it, and engaged to observe it; as long as he — Rather, as long as it liveth; that is, abideth in force, and no longer.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Roman's 7:6 (law) 3551. nomos ►
Strong's Concordance
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general
In just a little bit, Paul is going to start referring to a different law... But so far he is only speaking of Moses law per Roman's 7:6
Unless you can make nomos mean Christ's law..
Then we will be forced to look at the context closer.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Romans 7:5-6
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?
Now compare this to the Gentiles and sinful passions of the flesh. They were never under the Law yet still had sinful passions. They too having died to what they were once bound to or maybe were never a part of.
Yet did their grafting in take away their sinful passions or just the boundness to their sinful passions?
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?
Now compare this to the Gentiles and sinful passions of the flesh. They were never under the Law yet still had sinful passions. They too having died to what they were once bound to or maybe were never a part of.
Yet did their grafting in take away their sinful passions or just the boundness to their sinful passions?
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I can.
Romans 2:15
15 Which shew the work of the nomoj (law)written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
and...
Heb.10:16
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my nomoj( laws) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
This says it all:
Hebrews 10:1
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things...
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