Paul's struggle of two natures.

[Israel]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?

Now compare this to the Gentiles and sinful passions of the flesh. They were never under the Law yet still had sinful passions. They too having died to what they were once bound to.
Yet did this take away their sinful passions or just the boundness to their sinful passions?

Worthy point. The gentiles, who had never been "under the law"...found also...a law at work...if they tried to "do good" to please God (apart from faith). Now as believers...they found the prohibition Paul speaks of, and discover (perhaps as I have ) I did not know the depths of sins claim as I am "seeking" to be justified in Christ. Yes...there is much uncovered. You may say "but are you not free?" Indeed we are, but the renewing of the mind is not complete at the moment of conception...and there is much the mind needs renewed.

The truth that we are washed and forgiven never departs...but as we make our first steps to now "follow", we find a resistance as completely unknown to us prior...a thing that does not want to make way at all, in any measure for Jesus Christ. If we think this will be seen as overcome by "adding " more efforts to be "good"...we find this thing in like measure also strengthened till frustration may be so profound in our "trying" to be good...we all but despair.
It is the "soul" trying to improve itself...not won to the truth of the spirit, "ye have died and your lives are hidden with Christ in God".

The truth of this is not a thing of which we are immediately made aware...and it can be that only in and through the many thwarting's...we are finally bought to acknowledge it. "Of myself, I can do nothing"

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

 

[StriperAddict]

It is the "soul" trying to improve itself...not won to the truth of the spirit, "ye have died and your lives are hidden with Christ in God".

The truth of this is not a thing of which we are immediately made aware...and it can be that only in and through the many thwarting's...we are finally bought to acknowledge it. "Of myself, I can do nothing"

Amen to us finding freedom in:
The renewing of our mind ... where we grow in the truth of our boundless covenant with Christ and the Father;

And in finding that there is an entity,
a "law" or a power at work ...

Paul put it this way in Rom 7, "I see a different law in the members of my body"

Sin has 2 definitions,
1) Verb, as in sins comitted,
and
2) NOUN,
Sin as a "resident power", an organized force, but NOT as an actual Identity of the believer.
This is tough to swallow, especially considering we labor much in our own "fight" against this power. God discussed it as a noun, in the masculine form in Genisis:
"Sin -- is crouching at the door"

So if we take the Rom 7 definition and agree that this "power of sin" is an external, NOT internal to our Spirit, Soul and heart,
then we have choices to make when "sin" comes knocking in our thoughts.
Such thoughts are NOT us, no not "from us" and this is important if we are to understand the fight and have any ongoing freedom as believers,

"We are destroying speculations (coming from the power of sin)
and
"we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ"

What I'm trying to say, albeit poorly, is that this so called "sin nature" died in our death with Christ,
but just as Jesus was tempted in all things as we (and not always from a direct encounter with the devil, but the power of sin itself)
Then we too can take the sin pressure coming from our flesh (not heart/Spirit) and with God's truth ... kick it to the pit where it belongs.

Hobbs, FYI, I believe Rom 7 is a victory chapter, in that Paul found that this sin (noun) was part of his body of flesh, and although the struggle as a believer seemed to appear as coming from his "old self" -- he was clear that this power of sin would not be an imposing master, even if in "the members of his body".
"Our old man is crucified with Christ,
that the body (power) of sin might be destroyed (made ineffective, lost its influence),
and that coming with the continued renewing of our minds, we would have our old false beliefs challenged with the truth.

This power of sin is not us, but it "speaks" to us, in our flesh. And it makes for us seeing more clearly that the last battlefield will be fought in the mind.
It would be well for us to consider that the Spirit of God, fully at home in our (purified) hearts, will endeavor to "make all grace abound" with the truth of our new true nature in Christ. (And this is where sin, the counterfeit, would want to steal our understanding)

"Encourage one another daily" yes, let truth have its way to free us from stinkin thinkin

 

[StriperAddict]

Freedom from law is freedom from sin

This does better justice to Romans Ch 7 in 5 min than my ramblings I hope it helps the discussion:

 

[1gr8bldr]

The title drew my attention.... thinking, this is applicable for Christians, much more so than your typical topic or message found in churches today, of how to clean up the flesh. After reading the comments, the title and the comments are derailed. Great topic/title. I feel as Paul many times. What I know I should do, I don't. And what I don't want to do, I do. I disappoint myself, in view of Christ. Paul's not talking about murder, porn or anything vile. He is talking about overcoming self. We have died to it, although it still lives in us, just as Adam was cursed with death, but did not die at that moment. We have crucified it with Christ although we have never been on a cross. It still lives, self, that nature that man tried to overcome, and it is a constant reminder to keep us humble, otherwise we would think we deserve heaven on our own merit. I'm encouraged by Paul's struggle, likely meant as encouragement rather than a confession

 

[Israel]

In the day you eat of it, you shall die.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Die? To what? What died...to what?
God still sees the soul, does He not?

But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

The soul ate a "bill of goods" in trying to be like God.

For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

But eyes opened to one thing, closed to another.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We got conned into thinking the knowing of good and evil...is all.
(And what man doesn't believe he does? Know good from evil?)

What use of God then...if the man can see good and evil?
Oh, how great a fall there! Unknown to the soul in the very moment of eating. Adam "to himself" remained alive..."gee, I still am" don't know what that death or whatever the Lord was talking about...He said something would happen...but all I know now is I see good and evil...but quick...let's go hide!

Totally unseeing, totally unknowing, totally blind to what he is, what he had become, what he now did, and was doing...thinking he now knows good from evil...in just the measure...to hide from God. Can we see? Do we see? How much more of that result must we know in ourselves...see...in ourselves...before we admit...yes, I have lost connection. My soul is blind! What it thinks it knows...even in and of "good and evil" is totally corrupted...it knows of it, but in the truest sense...knows really nothing of it. Because what it "thinks" it knows...is all, more than merely askew...but reversed. Hide from friend...and give itself to enemy.

But God...still sees the soul...and has mercy. Do we really doubt that God didn't "see" Adam? "Where are you?"

It was Adam...who didn't see Adam...where he was, what he was doing...all the while now convinced he did! Knew "enough" to think he could hide from God. How much of that "enough" do we still want? Is the lesson not yet complete?


This scripture makes no sense if we believe Adam truly knows anything more than good and evil are...but is also able to discern between them.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Do we hear? Do we see?

Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

 

[hummerpoo]

In the day you eat of it, you shall die.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Die? To what? What died...to what?
God still sees the soul, does He not?

But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

The soul ate a "bill of goods" in trying to be like God.

For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

But eyes opened to one thing, closed to another.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We got conned into thinking the knowing of good and evil...is all.
(And what man doesn't believe he does? Know good from evil?)

What use of God then...if the man can see good and evil?
Oh, how great a fall there! Unknown to the soul in the very moment of eating. Adam "to himself" remained alive..."gee, I still am" don't know what that death or whatever the Lord was talking about...He said something would happen...but all I know now is I see good and evil...but quick...let's go hide!

Totally unseeing, totally unknowing, totally blind to what he is, what he had become, what he now did, and was doing...thinking he now knows good from evil...in just the measure...to hide from God. Can we see? Do we see? How much more of that result must we know in ourselves...see...in ourselves...before we admit...yes, I have lost connection. My soul is blind! What it thinks it knows...even in and of "good and evil" is totally corrupted...it knows of it, but in the truest sense...knows really nothing of it. Because what it "thinks" it knows...is all, more than merely askew...but reversed. Hide from friend...and give itself to enemy.

But God...still sees the soul...and has mercy. Do we really doubt that God didn't "see" Adam? "Where are you?"

It was Adam...who didn't see Adam...where he was, what he was doing...all the while now convinced he did! Knew "enough" to think he could hide from God. How much of that "enough" do we still want? Is the lesson not yet complete?


This scripture makes no sense if we believe Adam truly knows anything more than good and evil are...but is also able to discern between them.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Do we hear? Do we see?

Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Ahh...the key...the crux...the ground...the foundation of the relationship.

 

[hobbs27]

I can.

Romans 2:15
15 Which shew the work of the nomoj (law)written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

and...


Heb.10:16
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my nomoj( laws) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


This says it all:

Hebrews 10:1

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things...

Sorry I was pulled away from this for a little while.
Welder..I think you're trying to thread the needle here with your interpretation .

Is it Spiritual law that Paul and his brethren ( Jewish Christians) were dead to in v4?


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


So it cant be.. And that makes Torah the subject of the chapter.
Agree?

 

[hobbs27]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?

Now compare this to the Gentiles and sinful passions of the flesh. They were never under the Law yet still had sinful passions. They too having died to what they were once bound to or maybe were never a part of.
Yet did their grafting in take away their sinful passions or just the boundness to their sinful passions?

I'm not sure exactly what youre asking in your questions. Paul is talking to his Jewish brethren that had left Torah... So he's showing how they were once bound to Torah which promised death.., but now they are in the Spirit which gives life.. It's an old covenant vs. New covenant scenario.

The Judaizers were attacking these Jewish Christians.. They knew how to inflict pain on them and shame them into considering going back to that which they had died to.... Torah.

 

[hobbs27]

This does better justice to Romans Ch 7 in 5 min than my ramblings I hope it helps the discussion:

This guy is almost spot on. Very good video, I only fault him on not considering the audience relevance in the text.. And the real struggle Paul and other Jewish Christians were going through in that day, when the Temple was still standing and Mosaic Judaism was larger and stronger in numbers than Christianity.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I liked Farley's message as well. So he sees sin as an outside force and not one of our two natures. Mainly because we take on a new nature with Christ's death. Our old self died with Christ.
Yet sin was our nature before we died with Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm not sure exactly what youre asking in your questions. Paul is talking to his Jewish brethren that had left Torah... So he's showing how they were once bound to Torah which promised death.., but now they are in the Spirit which gives life.. It's an old covenant vs. New covenant scenario.

The Judaizers were attacking these Jewish Christians.. They knew how to inflict pain on them and shame them into considering going back to that which they had died to.... Torah.

What I was saying earlier is that in Romans 7 Paul is describing Jews trying to live by Law and grace. Farley should have referred to this more than he did as you suggested.
Now we can take Paul's message,(the tree in the forest) and apply it to us as gentiles grafted in. We can see or compare Romans 7 to grace and sin or the Law and grace as Farley mentions. If we continue to think it more than grace then we will ultimately fail just as the Jews Paul mentioned would fail if they continued to live by Law and grace.
I would agree Paul was discussing Jews who were trying to do this or thinking of returning to the Law while still using grace.
We can take that lesson as Gentiles and use it as us trying to live by law and grace. Grace doesn't work that way.

 

[Artfuldodger]

(Rom.7:7-8:13) Paul in this section of Romans gives his own experience of being bound to the law of sin and death, and his deliverance from it to prove SIN IS SOMETHING SEPARATE FROM MAN HIMSELF which DOMINATES him and makes him transgress the law of God.
1. By the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom.7:7).
2. Sin itself is the thing in me that is sinful, working in me all evil desires, and asserts its mastership and refuses to permit me to obey the law of God as I desire (Rom. 7:7, 8).
3. Sin itself is, the thing in me that rebels against the law and makes me break it, so that death penalty of the broken law can be carried out to kill me (Rom. 7:9).
4. The law of God was ordained to be life to me; but sin in me which had control of me before the law came, would not let me obey the law, thus cutting me off from the life that I would have gotten if I could have obeyed the law. I WAS FORCED BY SIN to obey it rather than the law, and this brought me the curse of the broken law (Rom. 7:10; Gal. 3:10).
5. Sin, using the commandment as an occasion to demonstrate its rightful and lawful authority over me, deceived me, and by it slew me (Rom. 7:11). Sin would not let me keep the commandment, but turned me over to receive its penalty for breaking the law. Sin itself betrayed me by taking advantage of my ignorance and helpless state; and , instead of being a friend and helping me to obey the law, IT MADE ME BREAK THE LAW.
6. I conclude that the law is holy, but I am a SLAVE TO SIN (Rom. 7:12).
7. Sin was more powerful in me than the law (Rom. 7:13, 14). It was just as sinful in me before the law came as afterward, only it was not imputed before the law came. That which was good was not the thing that killed me, but sin did it. The commandment merely showed up my sin. The blame is then on sin and not on the holy law (Rom. 7:13, 14).
8. Sin was more powerful than I was (Rom. 7:15-25). I consented to the holy law, but sin would not let me obey it. I never was successful in obeying the law as long as sin was in control (Rom. 7:15-20). I was not a willing slave, for INWARDLY I WANT TO DO THE WILL OF GOD; NOT OUTWARDLY but sin would not let me.(Rom. 7:21, 23). I was a wretched creature, being killed by sin, which would not let me obey the law (Rom. 7:24, 25).
9. I was finally delivered by the law of the spirit of life, after three days of fasting and prayer (Rom. 8:1-13); Acts 9:8-18; Gal. 5:16-26). The law of the spirit of life in Christ is more powerful than the law of sin and death that works by the devil, and this is what made me free from sin. Thus it is clear that sin is a FIXED PRINCIPLE OPERATED BY Satan. It is called the law of sin and death in man's members and works to bring man to full defeat and eternal He11. This work is annulled in the believer by Christ (Rom. 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26; 1 Cor. 6:9-11).

"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).

So you see sin as a separate force that interferes with you keeping the Law? Then how do you perceive what Jesus died for? To rid you of sin so that you can keep the Law? How do you explain grace? Grace to rid you of sin so that you can keep Law?
What percentage does grace cover in allowing you to keep Law? Meaning exactly what measure do you use to know how much Law you keep to maintain salvation?

Do you really see anyone ever being capable of keeping Law, Jew or Gentile, saved or not saved, considering that this outside force of sin is always present? Say it moved from our flesh at salvation to an outside force. It's still there. We still sin. We can't keep Law. Never could and never will.
That's the reason Jesus died on a cross. Not just to move sin from our flesh to outside our flesh. In doing so we can't keep Law and we still sin.

I don't believe Jesus died on a cross to remove sin so that we could keep Law. If that's the way it works, it ain't working.

 

[StriperAddict]

So you see sin as a separate force that interferes with you keeping the Law? Then how do you perceive what Jesus died for? To rid you of sin so that you can keep the Law? How do you explain grace? Grace to rid you of sin so that you can keep Law?
What percentage does grace cover in allowing you to keep Law? Meaning exactly what measure do you use to know how much Law you keep to maintain salvation?

Do you really see anyone ever being capable of keeping Law, Jew or Gentile, saved or not saved, considering that this outside force of sin is always present? Say it moved from our flesh at salvation to an outside force. It's still there. We still sin. We can't keep Law. Never could and never will.
That's the reason Jesus died on a cross. Not just to move sin from our flesh to outside our flesh. In doing so we can't keep Law and we still sin.

I don't believe Jesus died on a cross to remove sin so that we could keep Law. If that's the way it works, it ain't working.

Art, I don't think God gave us His Spirit and grace to live but then go back and use the law as a safety net. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
My point is that the cross and the resurrection destroy any safety net.

 

[hobbs27]

What I was saying earlier is that in Romans 7 Paul is describing Jews trying to live by Law and grace. Farley should have referred to this more than he did as you suggested.
Now we can take Paul's message,(the tree in the forest) and apply it to us as gentiles grafted in. We can see or compare Romans 7 to grace and sin or the Law and grace as Farley mentions. If we continue to think it more than grace then we will ultimately fail just as the Jews Paul mentioned would fail if they continued to live by Law and grace.
I would agree Paul was discussing Jews who were trying to do this or thinking of returning to the Law while still using grace.
We can take that lesson as Gentiles and use it as us trying to live by law and grace. Grace doesn't work that way.

We can take that as a message on the blessing of grace. I see something else here.

I see a small group of Jew's that have been enlightened spiritually to God's truth in His Son. They are at odds with their nation and probably at odds with many family members. We know Jew's were persecuting them for their faith in Jesus.

If their fleshly minds wanted to make their stay on this earth easier, all they had to do was walk away from Christ and return to the Old physical system. That also meant dealing with sin again.. And the wage of sin.. Death. Many had probably lost family members, lost their inheritance, lost friendships..not unlike folks today, when they trust in the lord, yet see something different from what their established denomination teaches.

Thanks be to God though.. They knew their persecution was only for that present time.

 

[Israel]

If the cross has not shown us the work of God in restoration as all that is contrary to a particular "way" of thinking, and by that most particular contrariness, destroyed that way of thinking, then we yet remain what operates according to (its own) knowledge of good and evil.
Our soul discerns it, and then from there then imparts, according to its whim, its judgment in all...it assigns "this is good", this...is evil.
It yet thinks..."being bad" is the issue, not knowing the sight that faith, and only faith, delivers. It is no more nor any different than what has always been in operation in all:

"Every way of a man is right (good) in his own eyes:"
Yet it is the latter half with which the man of faith comes aware (though he could not know the above apart from faith, either.):

but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

"Everything is open and laid bare before him with whom we have to do."

This is where we now live, in that presence, where darkness of mind (once received by consumption...no less as a virus is consumed in the opening of a promised "good" email..."You have won 5,000$) "Ye shall be as God."

The corruption was never the enticement...but a promise of a seemingly good thing, that hid it within. To see it has corrupted all down to most fundamental level of the OS is no small matter...but it cannot be discerned in itself. Nor of itself.

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Yes, there is a loftiness in saying "it is no small matter". The depth of the corruption is measured, not of itself, nor can be...it can only be measured by seeing the depths and heights employed in its correction...its (our) redemption.
To think casually upon, and therefore remark casually upon the "all" of the all of the work done in and through Jesus Christ our Lord, shows only where we are. It is only the light of both His mind, and His minding, made known to us now through the Spirit, that lets us appreciate the depths of his descent in humility of obedience in order to touch the depths in man that could in no other way be healed.
Yes, he had to go deeper than the OS, past the place of "I assent"...past the reasonings of all corrupted reasoning..to bring the light of true Reason. It is the place against which the soul has no availing to either "make" Jesus Lord, nor unseat Him. (to do what it considers "good" to show Him, or in resistance think it may "hide" Him, or has hidden Him)

From that place alone the man is informed...in either darkness or light. The place from which it is revealed to the soul...or not..."I can do nothing of myself". The soul that still barters with itself, speaks to itself of doing good or evil does not yet realize it is bartering of debt. The commerce there is ALL of wrong.

Can a "believer" erroneously think he can live from his own soul?
Surely the scriptures are full of reproofs and reprimands and warnings. Live from where "his own" knowledge of good and evil...rule?

Do the experiment. Each of us cannot help but do so. We are in it.

Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Art, I don't think God gave us His Spirit and grace to live but then go back and use the law as a safety net. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
My point is that the cross and the resurrection destroy any safety net.

I would agree, the cross is the safety net, not keeping the Law. I was asking Banjo Picker how he sees it. It sounds like he is saying the cross removed sin so that he could keep the Law.

 

[gordon 2]

We can take that as a message on the blessing of grace. I see something else here.

I see a small group of Jew's that have been enlightened spiritually to God's truth in His Son. They are at odds with their nation and probably at odds with many family members. We know Jew's were persecuting them for their faith in Jesus.

If their fleshly minds wanted to make their stay on this earth easier, all they had to do was walk away from Christ and return to the Old physical system. That also meant dealing with sin again.. And the wage of sin.. Death. Many had probably lost family members, lost their inheritance, lost friendships..not unlike folks today, when they trust in the lord, yet see something different from what their established denomination teaches.

Thanks be to God though.. They knew their persecution was only for that present time.

This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.


There is something about "seeing different" that does not sit well when it reaches out beyond the garden of Eden so to speak... or that overreaches God's promises... or that makes the Kingdom political or intelectual even. And does "seeing different" serve the glory of God or man's? When is seeing just long hair on a Greek and when is it a faculty to serve man from our Lord's cross?

To be "born again from above" does not make the glory of God different, his truths differently seen, his promises differently understood from one generation to the next, especially that Christians are one generation-- yet it makes all to see differently than when not in the new way!

Eve said the Lord meant to Adam something contrary as previously seen and was she ever wrong. Why would one or a few say to many that despite the centuries and to the contrary of that believed, seen, and understood by those ever intimate with Jesus through the Holy Spirit -- contrary that the Lord will come, fact that our Lord has returned to a second coming-- and be thought as not the son of Eve? What is so different in the promise God made to a saint in the 18th century to the one living today? Why would a saint in the 11th century assured of the promises of his Lord by faith, as is ours today, not pray as we pray for a body resurrected, the forgiveness of sin and the day the Lord will come as witnessed by the Good News ---resurrected! and the saints resurrected as Him.

Does faith need long haired Greeks to especially light up God's light...and seeing things different? Paul he was from seeing or blindness an apostle? Seeing he was a sinner, blinded he became a saint. Seeing he did not see, blinded he saw. And what he saw and said is sufficient to seeing different I think. It is enough for all who believe. Being like Paul is seeing different enough. And putting words in Paul's mouth is since questionably seen.

 

[hobbs27]

This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.

It never serves the Kingdom well to blast those outside the gates. We as children are suppose to say, Come! Come in to this kingdom!
The JW is a very trained debator. They have answers for all the usual questions and derogatory comments. They most likely know more about scripture than most Christians that spend a lifetime in church. I have broken a few down and had them send me private messages stating they were now questioning what they were being taught.... But these usually leave the FB group and I never hear from them again, most likely they mentioned their doubts to an elder and were dealt with accordingly to be put back in line... That's not Liberty in Christ, that's bondage to a law.

 

[Israel]

This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.


There is something about "seeing different" that does not sit well when it reaches out beyond the garden of Eden so to speak... or that overreaches God's promises... or that makes the Kingdom political or intelectual even. And does "seeing different" serve the glory of God or man's? When is seeing just long hair on a Greek and when is it a faculty to serve man from our Lord's cross?

To be "born again from above" does not make the glory of God different, his truths differently seen, his promises differently understood from one generation to the next, especially that Christians are one generation-- yet it makes all to see differently than when not in the new way!

Eve said the Lord meant to Adam something contrary as previously seen and was she ever wrong. Why would one or a few say to many that despite the centuries and to the contrary of that believed, seen, and understood by those ever intimate with Jesus through the Holy Spirit -- contrary that the Lord will come, fact that our Lord has returned to a second coming-- and be thought as not the son of Eve? What is so different in the promise God made to a saint in the 18th century to the one living today? Why would a saint in the 11th century assured of the promises of his Lord by faith, as is ours today, not pray as we pray for a body resurrected, the forgiveness of sin and the day the Lord will come as witnessed by the Good News ---resurrected! and the saints resurrected as Him.

Does faith need long haired Greeks to especially light up God's light...and seeing things different? Paul he was from seeing or blindness an apostle? Seeing he was a sinner, blinded he became a saint. Seeing he did not see, blinded he saw. And what he saw and said is sufficient to seeing different I think. It is enough for all who believe. Being like Paul is seeing different enough. And putting words in Paul's mouth is since questionably seen.

If I hear you in my hearing and attention...it is that the hearing of Paul, is to hear the substance of Paul, to go, (if you will) in the words...to beyond the words...to the man. To touch the truth (again, if you will) of the man...and thereby (by a means of a ministration out from a place beyond "our own" control) be brought to confess "this man is true". Or...not.

In that sense perhaps we have touched spirit, and spirit ministers as only spirit does...life. In that then, the words, though being first "bridge"...now appear not as "mere" tools...or means...but also of true substance.


We can look at this statement on face:


Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you yourselves not my workmanship in the Lord? Even if I am not an apostle to others, surely I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

We needn't go far. We take the words apart...we look at a thing that does not even seem up for any repudiation...yet Paul plainly states "it could be". "I may not be an apostle to others"...(Beware those who would try to hang you by context...for they are themselves...hung here)


But here is what is of greater weight than words read and discerned according to what men seek to hang others with of "plainness". "It's so plain! Anyone should get it!"

Beyond the admission that this man makes ...(if one has seen) of the richness of things bequeathed him...is the man willing to say "I may not be an apostle to others".
It could make one laugh...or cry, depending, or just rejoice, how that "that man" is thought so apprehended by some that they will endorse him...with an endorsement he never even took to himself.

How will such a man be "contextualized"? Does my "having been a gentile" after the flesh...automatically make him my apostle?
Did his, does his "knowing" have an implicit "I am an apostle of all time to all gentiles?" He surely never appears to have said that...especially to the very extreme of a contextualizer...he wrote to whom he wrote...and since I am neither of Corinth, nor Galatia, nor anything other than presently, Guyton Georgia...what discretion is allowed to accept or reject? (Yet each man eats where he eats)

Some may say "Oh, but it's the Bible!" "The BIBLE!" Well, by what power does one have to endorse a thing, that of that thing in and of itself...bears witness to "certain"? For here is where spirit alone reigns...and all of "I endorse" is of no consequence...in the extreme.

Some will understand here the nature of the presumption by which every man is found. And found out. What will be the hope of the man who quotes...uses..."Paul's words"...when the man himself yet refuses the "substance"...of Paul?
What man will quote letters to Timothy, written as to a son who had served his father in the gospel (reading another's mail) and thinking thereby...that the simple reading and quoting will come at no consequence?

"I can play at the pond if I want to!" Everyone "else" has told me, I not only can...but should!

Yes...but you may well indeed slip in.

Ahhh, it is here a man may be found out, found all "out"...in his own presumption. And here a man might hear a thing about searching the scriptures and eternal life...his desk abounding with commentaries, notes, and endless perusals the soul telling itself "this is life"...until...the slip...ordained.

A voice from beyond the soul begins to speak to a thing lured by its own presumptions to the place it now knows it must be saved from. "All it knows" is of no avail then. All surmise and previous advice to the soul pales.

One has slipped and fallen into the Living God, and being...and not being are both of equal mass here, there is no discerning between them. "I may be" "I may not be" are indistinguishable of preference. One cannot make themselves to be...nor other. What is...is. Here.
The soul's choices of what is for who, who is for what stand less in judgment than the overarching knowing that it is that very presumption of choices assumed to itself...is what now stands in the awful docket.


Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.

 

[welderguy]

Sorry I was pulled away from this for a little while.
Welder..I think you're trying to thread the needle here with your interpretation .

Is it Spiritual law that Paul and his brethren ( Jewish Christians) were dead to in v4?


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


So it cant be.. And that makes Torah the subject of the chapter.
Agree?

It's not just Torah in verse 4 that Paul is dealing with. It's Torah and everything the old law represented. The whole "do this and live" mentality. This is still a common misconception today. People think they can do something to be saved. When they fall into that bondage, they have "fallen from grace".

Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


You may never be able to understand what I'm saying here because in my opinion, anyone who believes in freewill salvation is in this very condition.