T/C Contender Questions and Others

[mike bell]

Well I just got to thinking about ditching my plans to build a 300 whisper on a bolt gun. I forgot all about my two Contender frames I have. I was looking at the links posted below and saw a couple of Whispers and .300/221 which is what my AR is....

Somewhere years ago I read something about putting a rifle barrel and butt stock on a pistol Contender was a no-no. Am I correct on that??

 

[TTom]

Mike,

If you put one on you have to put them both on. You cannot put the stock on it with the shorter than 16 inch barrel, and you cannot leave the stock off if you put a longer than 16 inch barrel on the frame.

 

[mike bell]

Yes, as I understand it, If I get a buttstock for my contender pistol, I better have a 16" or longer barrel for it. I was wondering if I can reconfigure it back to the pistol version, without the NFA stamp. You know, once I go long, I wanna go back when ever....


I was trying to find out about having a buttstock near a Contender pistol, what they have been doing. If ATF can make a double barrel shotgun full auto, they can make a buttstock a SBR!

I have two G1 frames and three barrels. A 357mag Octogon, a 22lr Bull barrel rechambered to 22magnum and a 30-30. Im thinking about getting a 300/221 (Whisper) carbine barrel and buttstock.


Heres the latest from ATF:

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.
ATF Rul. 2011-4
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configurationbyremovalofthosecomponents. Specifically,ATFhasbeenaskedto determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).
Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.
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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.
The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act‚s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term „firearm‰ at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include „(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;‰ („short-barreled rifle‰) and „(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length‰ („weapon made from a rifle‰). The term „rifle‰ is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as „a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.‰ Although not defined in the NFA, the term „pistol‰ is defined by the Act‚s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as „a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)‰ (emphasis added).
Unassembled Parts Kits
In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was „made‰ under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot „Contender‰ pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the „rule of lenity‰ (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a „short-barreled rifle‰ for purposes of the NFA.
However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a
-3- complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a
long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13. Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits
The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled „rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of „firearm‰ in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or „any other weapon‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.
Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a „pistol‰ because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including ˆ (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and
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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.
Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: July 25, 2011
Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director

 

[TTom]

My read is that you have to keep ALL the parts in proximity or NONE of them.

If you have only the butt stock and not the barrel 16+ then you have a problem.

If you have only the barrel 16+ an not the stock then you have a problem.

If both pieces are available then you're OK.

 

[Richard P]

I believe TTom is correct on the relationship. If you could configure an overall length of 26'' or more you could use the handgun grip. With the rifle butt you must adhere to barrel length of 16'' at least AND it must also have overall length of 26'' or more.
The most current text of the interpretations and rulings should be made ''stickies''.

 

[GLS]

Back in the 1980s when I shot IHMSA (International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association), a standard 10" TC shooting a 7mm 130 or 162 grain bt Sierra would routinely shoot less than .75-.5" groups at 100 yards off of sandbags with a 6x extended relief scope. These were 5 shot groups we took developing loads for production gun competition with the factory sights that came on the gun. The wildcat round was the highly accurate 7mm TCU's which was a 7 mm round out of a necked-up 5.56 Nato round, M16 brass. My shooting partner could do this (not me) with his gun or mine. He is a crack shot capable of exploiting the accuracy of any weapon. The only modifications to these guns was trigger work. The velocity was probably borderline for expansion and would probably not be a good choice for hunting. But for tack driving....

 

[frankwright]

I once participated in an online shooting contest that required your first three shots into the head of a gopher target at 100 yards.
I was using a 14" 7-30 Waters with handloads, shot off a makeshift rest. 2-6X Bushnell scope and a completely stock gun.

I had a three shot group, all rounds touching that was around .75 and I wasn't even in the running to win the contest.

Some guys were shooting specialized, Modified long range Contenders and the accuracy can be unbelievable.

 

[Eddy M.]

my most accurate hunting contenders are the #1 --7MM TCU and #2 - the 7X30 Waters and #3 -my 357 MAXIMUM. --------- I admit I am addicted to TC's and will never have enough frames or barrels and I am always looking for something new-- just don't tell the other half

 

[GLS]

my most accurate hunting contenders are the #1 --7MM TCU

Eddy, what bullet type and velocity is your hunting round for the 7mm TCU? Are you getting good expansion? It's been close to 30 years since I messed with TC's and there wasn't much readily available info for 7mm TCU hunting rounds. Most folks were using the .357 wildcat cartridges or at least that was what the hook and bullet mags discussed. I no longer have the guns, but they were some kind of accurate. My best was a 14" TC custom made by Vern Juenke of Reno. It shot a necked up RWS 5.6 x 57R cartridge out of a bull barrel. The round was 6-6.5mm --can't remember the exact size. That was a heckuva gun for silhouettes. My shooting buddy now has my guns.
Gil

 

[Eddy M.]

due to health issues I haven't been able to HUNT for 3 - 4 years so haven't loaded any but the loads were 120 -130 grain "single shot pistol" ( I think Sierra) bullets with IMR 4198 the 120's the most accurate ------- I got 1/2" groups at 100 yrds with my contender with dot optics with the 120's the 130's were very close ---- the 120 gr@1500 +/- ----/ 130gr @ 1300 +/- or so expansion on the 120 was good -- 130 don't know as the 120's were the hunting load I used

 

[GLS]

Eddy, thanks for the info. It's good to hear from someone who doesn't roll their eyes at the mention of half inch groups with a pistol. Wish you continued recovery. '73 NN4CW Gil

 

[HandgunHTR]

GLS,

I shoot a 7TCU for hunting. I use a 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Here is the results on a nice little GA 6-point.

Entrance wound (the coin is a dime):

Exit wound (the coin is a quarter):

This was at 76 yards. The shot was just behind the shoulder. The deer went about 30 yards before piling up and poured blood the whole way.

 

[GLS]

HandgunHTR, I'd say it expanded nicely.

 

[icfmike]

I hunt with a 14" 7X30 Waters, love the round. Have a 7tcu that I haven't used much since the 7X30. 45-410 for the birds, 22 for plinking and am now turning a 223 into a pellet gun.

 

[Win1917]

my most accurate hunting contenders are the #1 --7MM TCU and #2 - the 7X30 Waters

Same here. My 7x30 has the edge over the 7mmTCU because it's a 14" custom barrel vs a 10" factory barrel but they're both tack drivers.

 

[Stickbow]

I inherited a pair of contenders when my father passed unexpectedly last year. One is a .22 match and the other is .309 jdj. I cannot wait to take a deer with the .309. I hunted with it last year but didnt have an opportunity. As for the 1/2" groups; when checking the scope last year using a bench and bag set-up, I was able to manage a three shot group with sub-half inch (they were all touching) at 100 yards. I absolutely love it and cant wait to put it to good use but now that also means I have to start re-loading .

 

[johnweaver]

if anyone is interested there is a Contender and 6 barrels on the Outdoor Trader Forum. under handguns, Georgia.

 

[HandgunHTR]

if anyone is interested there is a Contender and 6 barrels on the Outdoor Trader Forum. under handguns, Georgia.

Yeah, but his price is WAYYYY too high.