The great Cull Buck Debate.

Heres my take.....and my opinion.

I see it every year on here and just recently today I watched a video on this Forum of a guy saying he was gonna shoot a "cull buck" later in the year if he walked back by. The deer had one perfect side and a dinky looking spike on the other. But was it a "cull buck"?

Absolutely not.

Cull bucks exist....but have normal racks. They're just inferior at maturity.

I got to spend about 4 years doing taxidermy and have also had some great conversations with the biologist at the UGA Whitetail Facility right down the road from me. The 4 years I spent doing taxidermy I skinned out somewhere around 300 mature whitetail deer skulls. Most of the oddball racked bucks had pretty defined pedicle injuries or some times the hunter would even say "he was limping" or "we found where somewhere shot him last year" which can easily lead to antler deformation.

I would go out on a limb here and say that about 80% of the "cull bucks" or deformed antler deer (one nice side and a spike on the other) are simply due to pedicle injuries. Yes, 80%. Mainly occurring more frequent in larger older deer that fight more and are more prone to head injuries.

The other 20% I would say is a mix of bad luck during the velvet phase and/or major injuries on the body.

Genetics are whole body. You can not say a deer has bad genetics because of one lousy spike on his left side and a full, perfect right side. Its not possible.

You are not doing yourself favor by shooting a buck like I have pictured below. You simply have removed a deer from your herd that has 100% perfectly fine genetics. Instead, you let a simple injury to the pedicle fool you and now you're out some great genes a few years down the road.

If you have any sheds laying around take a look at them. The biologist at UGA described it best. A "dirty shed" simply sheds off more pedicle that it should have cause an injury to the area and CAN LIKELY cause a spike like effect the next growing season. In my opinion this is way less likely but still possible. I think any buck fighting into January is most likely to receive this type of injury.

No one wants to see GA grow bigger and bigger deer every year more than me and this is just another way to help us get there. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to remove bad genetics from a free ranging deer herd yet every hunter that sees a fully developed right antler and spike left antler kill them thinking they are helping when in fact.....they are doing more damage.

If they are not a trophy to you because of a deformity to one or the other side, then let them live and pass on some fine genetics. That's the best option.
 

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rugerfan

Senior Member
I tend to agree with your logic. Most of the the deformities I have seen and read about are from serious injuries. I think I read if a deer has an bodily injury on the right side, it will cause a deformity in the left antler.
Years ago, we had a strange looking 7 point that left antler had curled under the jaw of the buck. The main beam had curled under the jaw and had actually poked the right eye out, when skinning it out we had found that the entire right front of the deer was really damaged, busted up right front shoulder bones and most of the ribs on the right side were busted up. Right Antler had 3 very long tines and a perfect guard horn. We had seen him for about a month and a half all busted up like that, my uncle took pity on him and put him down.
 

Mark K

Banned
My definition of cull is anything 4.5-5.5 and less than 120”. I have one I haven’t scored yet because I really don’t care what he scores...he was an old buck we have been letting go “hoping” he would miraculously gain mass and tine length...he never did.
Most “culls” I hear about are an excuse for itchy trigger finger. We try and give every buck a chance at growth. Sometimes when they hit that 140ish mark we get itchy trigger fingers too.
With that being said, I did let my son shoot a young buck that had a visible hole in his head where the entire antler has broken off including the skull. There was a chance he wouldn’t get infected, but there was also a chance he would. But, we never classified him as a cull.
This was my cull...the Wide 10...
AA214B51-1309-46B2-9767-BD38FF910E25.jpeg
 
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I tend to agree with your logic. Most of the the deformities I have seen and read about are from serious injuries. I think I read if a deer has an bodily injury on the right side, it will cause a deformity in the left antler.
The nerves switch over and cris cross halfway down the deers spine. An injury on the front half of the deer with affect the same side, and an injury on the back half will affect the opposite side.
 

buckpasser

Senior Member
I agree completely with your assessment of cause of antler deformities. I just don’t care if they die. There are breeders and good and bad genetics all over that we can’t see. If a buck is screwed up, I don’t really need him in my plot or woods anymore. I only “cull” for that individual buck. If he’s a beaut and breeds every doe in my 500 ac, all of those buck offspring will go elsewhere anyway, so what does it matter? Unless fenced, shoot if you want, pass if you want, but don’t think you’re doing the woods a huge favor in the way of genetics either way.
 

deast1988

Senior Member
100% a cull to me isn’t a bad rack it’s just what god gifted him with. Inferior genetics, I’m hunting a 6pt that’s huge all he ever was. But I’d be happy to get him, kuhl bucks are just ones with inferior racks, not on the spectrum just not as big or as great as others but absolutely healthy normal deer with off racks.
 

Buford_Dawg

Senior Member
In most folks eyes "Culling" is just an excuse to pull that trigger. I've hunted with quite a few that would drive up with a 4 pt in the truck and say "oh he's just cull". Same people that made the rule of 4 on one side.
100% agree with most of the comments in this thread. Using the term "cull" is simply saying I am going to shoot a immature deer. Give the hunter a reason to pull the trigger. I am all for a hunter shooting any size deer they desire, but don't call it a "cull" just to reason why you harvest it.
 

transfixer

Senior Member
I could believe what the OP is saying, but we have had about 3 different yearling bucks, 1 1/2 yrs old, that have had a spike or sometimes a fork, on one side and on the other side a very short multi-pointed stub of an antler, one was killed last year, there was another one that was not killed, one was seen year before last, this year we have one with 3 points on one side and a short stubb on the other side, these are not the same deer, we've also not ever noticed antlers like this until the last 3yrs .

So if its not genetic related ? are we to believe that all of a sudden 3yrs in a row, we have young bucks that have injuries that affected one side of their antlers ? seems like a lot of coincidence if thats the case.
 

GottaGetOutdoors

Senior Member
The topic of culling comes up every year, even though the debate has been settled long ago. Culling with intent to improve genetics will not work among free range deer. Period. Here's why:

1. Culling is more subjective than objective. A weed is just a plant growing where it is not wanted. Ask 100 hunters to name 5 clearly visible traits of a genetically inferior buck. In other words, how to spot a cull buck. You will get opinions. Not facts. I’ve been on Texas ranches where a buck is culled if less than 10 points at age 2.5. Another ranch culled any 3.5-year-old with less than 6” brow tines. Big difference between a buck that is genetically “inferior” and a buck that is personally undesirable. Some hunters use the excuse, “he needed culling,” as a get-out-of-jail-card for making a questionable kill.

2. Case of mistaken identity. We all know stories of a buck with messed up rack. There’s ‘Old Hook’ with 5 typical points on one side and a spike on one side (SOS). Or some kind of deformed antler on one side. This is often due to injury - on the opposite side from the deformed antler - and will self-correct next year. But even if Ol’ Hook’s antler pedicle injury is permanent and he grows a weird rack year over year, he may possess superior genetics to sire a Booner.

2. The doe contributes over 50% of a buck fawn's DNA including his antler traits. To measurably improve herd genetics, you would have to cull genetically inferior does as well. It is impossible to identify and cull "inferior" does. Killing a buck that you deem a call does not eliminate the genetic traits.

3. Culling only works when you control 100% of breeding by selective matching a specific doe to breed with a specific buck. Then repeat this process for every desirable animal in the herd over several generations. Only way to accomplish that is with captive deer in breeder pens. Impossible in the wild. Consider the number of breeding age does and bucks at the herd level. There is no way to selectively pair a specific buck and doe in a free-range herd. No way to control breeding of bucks with desired antler characteristics. And no way to identify a doe with those same desired antler characteristics. Likewise, it is unfeasible to expect that culling a single animal can remove what is believed to be an undesirable genetic trait.

4. Genetic traits can skip a generation. We all know tall couples who have short kids and short couples who have tall kids. Maybe you have twins in your family that occur every other generation. Point is, the buck you've identified as a cull may carry super buck traits that will be expressed in his progeny.

5. Research does not support culling. There is a mountain of peer-reviewed research on culling. Conclusions support the position that culling will not work in free range deer herds. Killing Ol’ Hook may make you feel better, but his absence does not move the genetics needle.

6. Ever wonder how deer herds avoid inbreeding? The natural mechanism is called “dispersal” and here’s how it works. A doe gave birth to a buck fawn last year, and that buck is now approaching 1.5 years old. Breeding season is approaching. This year’s fawn in the process of being weaned. Older bucks are beginning to spar and prepare for breeding season. And now is when the 1.5 YO buck gets booted from his familial group. Adult does and adult bucks drive the 1.5 YO buck from the herd. The 1.5 now has to venture out and find a new territory as home range. Young bucks typically disperse 2-5 miles from their place of birth. The deer herd you are managing is actually exchanging bucks (and their genetic makeup) with other herds for miles around. We are also learning from new research that does also take “excursions” during the rut and get bred by bucks outside her home range. This challenges traditional thinking about holding does on your land so the bucks will come to you.

My advice to hunt clubs and landowners is simple: Focus on improving habitat, improving doe-to-buck ratio, protecting underage bucks, increasing fawn survival, controlling nuisance animals, and reducing hunting pressure. Set reasonable expectations for the caliber of bucks that your county and your specific property can reasonably produce. Accept that genetics are a fixed part of the equation that you cannot change despite what the gimmick peddlers say. There is 0% chance that genetics are improved by killing a buck that someone deems inferior.
 
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Throwback

Chief Big Taw
In most folks eyes "Culling" is just an excuse to pull that trigger. I've hunted with quite a few that would drive up with a 4 pt in the truck and say "oh he's just cull". Same people that made the rule of 4 on one side.
100%
 

Nicodemus

The Recluse
Staff member
Nobody has mentioned piebalds. Most of them have shorter than normal legs and overbites. If there is such a thing as cull, they would be one.

Otherwise, the word is not in my vocabulary.
 
I could believe what the OP is saying, but we have had about 3 different yearling bucks, 1 1/2 yrs old, that have had a spike or sometimes a fork, on one side and on the other side a very short multi-pointed stub of an antler, one was killed last year, there was another one that was not killed, one was seen year before last, this year we have one with 3 points on one side and a short stubb on the other side, these are not the same deer, we've also not ever noticed antlers like this until the last 3yrs .

So if its not genetic related ? are we to believe that all of a sudden 3yrs in a row, we have young bucks that have injuries that affected one side of their antlers ? seems like a lot of coincidence if thats the case.

100% not genetic related.

But what I can tell you is, killing a 1.5 year old deer because you think it has bad genetics is just silly.
 

bfriendly

Bigfoot friendly
I never could figure out what a cull buck looked like......I thought if his antlers were just crazy looking(both sides) or not majestically shaped, take him out.
 
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