Randy
Senior Member
Tn_Extreme said:
Welcome Guest!
Total Depravity
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SBG
Senior Member
Randy said:
The thing is Randy is that I can show you what I believe with scripture. You believe something that is neither taught in scripture, or is the belief of the vast majority of 'orthodox' Christianity.
SBG
Senior Member
Randy said:
The baby is born with a sin nature and will commit sin. The baby is indeed doomed to condemnation.
Randy
Senior Member
SBG said:
Nobody said I was right! You can defend what you say in scripture (if I also read it the way you do) but you can not disprove my belief either.
It is not about proof. Christians base a lot of their beliefs in faith because some things can not be prooved.
One other thing about this issue, as neither you nor I are babies, this really does not affect either of us and will not keep either of us from heaven no matter which one is right.
If you really want to talk about scriptures, I believe there is one that says do not argue over petty issues. In fact that is probably why most of the preachers here keep their mouths shut. But you asked so we are arguing....discussing it.
Tn_Extreme
Banned
Randy said:
Several people on this topic have posted straight Bible scripture which blatantly says ALL men are born with a sin nature and are not born "saved" or in favour with God. and you have chosen to step over the Bible, over Gid;s word, and choose to believe something that is not true and not consistant with the Bible. The silence of a few preachers on this subject is a moot point. I would hope most God called Preachers would have more important things to do than argue with someone on the internet.In factm the time wasted typing on this forum would is time we ALL should have been devling and studying God;s word, RIGHTLY DIVIDING it so we wont be led astray.
Randy
Senior Member
Sorry Extreme,
I guess I need to correct myself. SBG ask who believes. I merly said I did not. I guess I am condemned too along with that baby?
Don't take it so personal Extreme. It is MY belief. You do not have to agree with it nor defend/proove yourself.
I guess I need to correct myself. SBG ask who believes. I merly said I did not. I guess I am condemned too along with that baby?
Don't take it so personal Extreme. It is MY belief. You do not have to agree with it nor defend/proove yourself.
Randy
Senior Member
SBG said:
You mean condemned to He!!? All babies go to He!!!
Tn_Extreme
Banned
Randy said:
Randy, Why is this so hard for you to understand.
A newborn child, while, as the Bible teaches, has a inherited sin nature and separatrion from God isnt condemned to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie if he dies before he has heard, understood, and rejected the Gospel.
Nowhere in the Bible will you find a example of a child being sent to heck.
You are saying that we are born with favour of God and in essence, SAVED..... THEN we turn from God and have to be saved again. That is taught NOWHERE in the Bible. You can believe it all you want but it isnt Biblical, Christ doesnt teach it, it isnt true.
And YES...this is my last post on this topic.
redwards
Senior Member
With regard to every human being born into sin, and the eternal condition of a baby's soul what is the significance of the following scripture? Especially the italicized verses (Psalm 51:5 & 2 Samuel 12:23).
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Randy believe it or not I think I almost understand what your thinking, at least I think I do.Randy said:
For starters, NO, babies are not condemned to he!!, I know that was not what you were implying to with what I quoted, you were answering someone else.
If I understand you right, your under the impression that the child is born sinless and at the proper age has to make the decision to accept God or not and then if he rejects God that is the point he either becomes sinner or saint. Otherwise, he would be condemned if he died before he reached that age to know God?
At least that is what I read into your post.
But the fact is, a baby is born into this world in sin, not saved. He may not be a killer, thief, rapist, robber or even have the slightest hate in his heart at all but still born into sin. It may be one of the finest humans alive and pure and honest just like alot of good people we all know. But it will still have to one day make that decision and that baby is protected by God and not held accountable until it is old enough to understand to make a decision to serve God or not. What ever that age may be depends on the maturity of that individual child. But as good as he is or as bad as he is, when he gets to that age, he has an option to be for God or against God, then he will have to answer to that decision. Although not held accountable yet, still born into sin.
Randy
Senior Member
Spotlite you are close. Actually at some point he decides to sin, even though up to that point he has probably been taught by his parents that it is wrong. At this point he understands what he has done is wromg and a sin and further he knows how to rectify the situation. Should he choose not to follow God he is lost, she he choose to follow God he is saved. But until he sins and understands what it is he is not doomed to He!!. At least in my belief. SBG said he was condemned. I assume he meant to He!!?
Rewards, your post brings that italicized scripture, which was previously quoted by Extreme, into text. The person who wrote that is say he was conceived in sin. As in maybe his mother was not married or not faithful or what ever. I don't know the exact situation of why he was conceived in sin. Not all conception is sin. At least I hope not.
Rewards, your post brings that italicized scripture, which was previously quoted by Extreme, into text. The person who wrote that is say he was conceived in sin. As in maybe his mother was not married or not faithful or what ever. I don't know the exact situation of why he was conceived in sin. Not all conception is sin. At least I hope not.
redwards
Senior Member
Randy said:
Randy,
Psalm 51 is categorized as a Davidic Psalm; generally accepted that it was written by King David.
No, we don't know exactly what he means in his writing, but the Holman Christian Standard Bible brings a clearer statement of the verse.
Notice who David stated was sinful. Not his mother, but he....
and no, all conception is not sin. God would not have instituted marriage if it were sinful. And further, God says this in Gen 1:28.
Just my take on the subject. For whatever that is worth!
The fact that I know my three children were born with inherited sin from Adam makes me a better father. I have concern and love for them that makes me take them to Church on Wednesday night, Sunday morning and Sunday night. Concern and love that motivates me to read scripture to them and pray with them. I knew that while they were in the grace period I had to be vigilent to educate them in the Word and raise them right so that one day when the Holy Spirit pricked their heart with the knowledge of the sinful nature and their need for an acceptance of Christ, they were ready. My eldest two have accepted Jesus. 
. My youngest is still too young, but one day he will realize he needs Jesus. 
The day all three of my children have accepted Christ and are assured of their salvation will be a glorious day in my household.
. My youngest is still too young, but one day he will realize he needs Jesus. The day all three of my children have accepted Christ and are assured of their salvation will be a glorious day in my household.
Randy
Senior Member
PWalls said:
Can you tell me what you mean by this? Is there some grace period somewhere in the scripture that I have not read about?
Are you saying that until they accept Christ no matter that age they are not assured of their salvation?
SBG
Senior Member
Randy,
I hope that my brief response was not misunderstood...but it appears that it may have been.
There has been plenty of scripture given that proves ALL are born with a sin debt. That little baby that seems to be innocent, is in fact, already counted as unrighteous. And because of their guilt, they are already condemned.
I didn't mean to imply that a baby that might die before attaining such an age that it can make a conscious decision to reject or accept Christ will go to he11 if they reject salvation: He will not. But, your previous posts seemed to go further than a baby. It seemed to me that you think that someone can live to a certain age without sinning: They cannot.
I hope that my brief response was not misunderstood...but it appears that it may have been.
There has been plenty of scripture given that proves ALL are born with a sin debt. That little baby that seems to be innocent, is in fact, already counted as unrighteous. And because of their guilt, they are already condemned.
I didn't mean to imply that a baby that might die before attaining such an age that it can make a conscious decision to reject or accept Christ will go to he11 if they reject salvation: He will not. But, your previous posts seemed to go further than a baby. It seemed to me that you think that someone can live to a certain age without sinning: They cannot.
Randy said:
Age of Accountability is the common phrase. When a child reaches the age in which they are mature enough to realize sin and are then held accountable for that. Up until that point, they fall under the mercy and grace of God. After that they are on the path to He!! and can only come off of it by accepting Jesus. That "age" depends on the child and their level of maturity.
R Smith
Senior Member
Randy said:
Randy,
I am going to butt in here and mention Ephesions 2:3
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.." from the Authorized King James
And....
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its deisres and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath." from the NIV
Verse 4 "But, because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions---- it is by grace you have been saved.
You want a picture of salvation, look at Ezekiel 37. Many equate this to the restoration of Iseal. It is also a perfect picture of salvation. We are the dead and dry bones! They did not make any choice to come together, put on flesh, put on skin and then take breath, it was the Spirit of God that moved on them and made them do it. The elect are called the elect (even Jesus himself used the term elect for believers in Matthew 24:22) for a reason, they are chosen by God. 1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generatio, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a pecurliar people;"
I grates against everything we are taught, especially as Americans. I am self made, I am basically good, I am the master of my own destiny, I chose life over death (spiritually), I,I,I! It is not about I, it is about God. Our purpose on this earth is to glorify God!
Dixie Dawg
Senior Member
Randy, I wouldn't stress too much about this if I were you. You will never get the answer you are looking for from Christianity, because the answer would have to make a hypocracy of the Christian faith. First, the NT says that NO ONE gets to heaven except through Jesus. NO ONE would include babies. So, using logic, that would mean that babies who die before they are able to know how to accept Jesus would go to he ll, if there was a he ll like Christians believe. Which is ridiculous... unless the god you believe in is unmerciful and cruel. Mine is not.
Anyway... while reading some of these posts, it occurred to me... in some ways this made me think of babies that are born to mothers who have AIDS. Just because the mother has AIDS does not mean the baby is born with it. And that's a BLOOD disease. Something to think about... ?
Anyway... while reading some of these posts, it occurred to me... in some ways this made me think of babies that are born to mothers who have AIDS. Just because the mother has AIDS does not mean the baby is born with it. And that's a BLOOD disease. Something to think about... ?
