Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

[Artfuldodger]

I have foreknowledge that my daughters are not very good using their free will to perform car maintenance. Therefore as a caring father, I do it for them. Check their tires, oil, etc. Tell them to go buy tires.

I can't foresee them having accidents. If I could, I would not let them get in a car on the day that I foresaw the accident. All I can do is use my foreknowledge about their lack of preventive maintenance to help them as best as I know how.

My foreknowledge does not equal that of God. If it did, and I could foresee accidents, then I would be forced to stop their foreseen choices. Otherwise me seeing there choices beforehand would be equal to condemning them.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Regardless of God causing or foreseeing, the results of eternal death are the same. I think we somehow feel better about it thinking God not causing it vs just foreseeing it somehow make God more Just.

The free will approach is another way we see God as being more Just than God always being in total control. God would not purposely blind a whole nation to allow salvation to be given to all the nations. God would not raise up Pharoah to be a part of His plan. God would not have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. A just God would not choose someone based on only grace unless he foresaw that they deserved it.

We can't fathom that so our answer is that God used foreknowledge that Pharoah was formed by the Potter to be a vessel of wrath because God foresaw that Pharoah was already a vessel of wrath.
God would not choose a remnant out of Israel based on just grace and blind the rest unless he foresaw that some were worthy and the others were not.

 

[NCHillbilly]

your definition of predestination seems to be flawed.

God predestined all of us to become sons of God. Some choose not to. God knows which will choose to become children, and which will not. He isn't forcing them to choose one way or the other, He just knows in advance what they will choose.

I have a grand daugther that I know hates chocolate. ( I know, females are suppose to adore the stuff). So, If I offer her a Hersey Kiss or a peppermint, I know before hand that she is going to chose the peppermint. That is her choice. I didn't force her to choose, and if she said she wanted the Hersey, I would be happy to give it to her. It just isn't in her makeup to eat chocolate though

Some folks will choose not to follow Christ. Isn't it a great thing that we are offered a choice, rather than a mandate from on high?

I got my definition of predestination directly from preachers and believers in it proselytizing it to me and listening to them and the non-predestination believers, including my non-predestination preacher dad argue about it back in my younger days. I agree that it's a flawed theory, but there are a lot of people who believe exactly what I defined. Or did at that time, I don't know how prevalent the belief still is around here.

 

[Spotlite]

Yet since God has already seen that they would not choose Him, how is that any different from predestination? One can't undo what God has already seen. Since God knew this before time, it's really about the same as predestination under the guise of free will.

You can call it what you want to but it's really the same thing because even though God didn't cause it, He foresaw it.

The difference - knowing is just that, knowing. Predestination the way it’s being used is saying those 3 are designed to be saved, those 2 are designed for the burn pit.

When used correctly, predestined means exactly what pappy said, God predestined all of us, all of mankind to live for him, he died for all, not a “select”. He knows the ones that will come to him and the ones who will not, but it’s biblical that a man’s unbelief causes him to fail - not “not chosen”

 

[Artfuldodger]

The difference - knowing is just that, knowing. Predestination the way it’s being used is saying those 3 are designed to be saved, those 2 are designed for the burn pit.

When used correctly, predestined means exactly what pappy said, God predestined all of us, all of mankind to live for him, he died for all, not a “select”. He knows the ones that will come to him and the ones who will not, but it’s not biblical to say that anything other than a man’s unbelief causes him to fail.

I'd rather leave the salvation of man up to God instead of man. If left up to the free will of man, he sure didn't do a good job of reaching the masses. God electing folks on all those small islands and jungle villages is a way more just plan than us reaching them. God reaching them is way more just than their eternal fate being in the hands of man.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The difference - knowing is just that, knowing. Predestination the way it’s being used is saying those 3 are designed to be saved, those 2 are designed for the burn pit.

When used correctly, predestined means exactly what pappy said, God predestined all of us, all of mankind to live for him, he died for all, not a “select”. He knows the ones that will come to him and the ones who will not, but it’s biblical that a man’s unbelief causes him to fail - not “not chosen”

What's your take on what Paul said in Ephesians pertaining to the Gentiles being without God and without hope? Where was their free will choice to choose God? Or Paul in Romans 11, where he said the Jews failure allowed salvation to go to the Gentiles? Where was their free will choice before that?

 

[Spotlite]

I'd rather leave the salvation of man up to God instead of man. If left up to the free will of man, he sure didn't do a good job of reaching the masses. God electing folks on all those small islands and jungle villages is a way more just plan than us reaching them. God reaching them is way more just than their eternal fate being in the hands of man.

Who said God would be hindered from those people?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Who said God would be hindered from those people?

I guess their dead could be in prison awaiting a chance at a choice for salvation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I think a lot of people believe God predestined the events in the Bible to make His plan for salvation happen the way He wanted it to but then after the resurrection switched to freewill.

That or they see God using predestination for His plan but not for individual salvation. Like God is in total control of everything that goes on except salvation.
Like God made everything happen to ensure His salvation plan would happen the way He wanted it to, but not the actual individual salvation of each person.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

I think because it lies in still letting someone do that. If I somehow had foreknowledge that my child was going to burn in a house fire and didn't go burn the house down earlier it would be evil.
We're talking about an eternity in He11, not chocolate candy choices.

but if you did that, you would have just eliminated free will.

I have talked to my children about decisions they were making, and advised them not to go down the path they were headed, but they chose to do differently. If I was going to let them make the decision, then I have to be willing to see them get hurt by their decision

 

[Spotlite]

What's your take on what Paul said in Ephesians pertaining to the Gentiles being without God and without hope? Where was their free will choice to choose God? Or Paul in Romans 11, where he said the Jews failure allowed salvation to go to the Gentiles? Where was their free will choice before that?

Did He or did He not provide a way of escape?

Gentiles were not and are not part of “Israel” except through being grafted in through Jesus.

Look at what you're saying - in one sentence you’re acknowledging that the Gentiles were without hope and saying they had no free will, in the other you acknowledged the failure of Israel.

Before the cross - God was grieved by man in Genesis. Why was that? Was man not acting according to His plan?

Why did God repent of the evil he planned to do to Nineveh in Jonah 3? If Nineveh was acting according to His plan, why did God plan to do evil to them? After they turned from their evil ways - God repented.

How does this happen in Isaiah?
“But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy” The Spirit was grieved because they rebelled???

For the rest - Jesus went to the cross for all, he didn’t die for the sins for most of the world - it was for all of the world. If any man will follow me….

 

[NE GA Pappy]

I have foreknowledge that my daughters are not very good using their free will to perform car maintenance. Therefore as a caring father, I do it for them. Check their tires, oil, etc. Tell them to go buy tires.

I can't foresee them having accidents. If I could, I would not let them get in a car on the day that I foresaw the accident. All I can do is use my foreknowledge about their lack of preventive maintenance to help them as best as I know how.

My foreknowledge does not equal that of God. If it did, and I could foresee accidents, then I would be forced to stop their foreseen choices. Otherwise me seeing there choices beforehand would be equal to condemning them.

that reasoning is all kinds of flawed.

You are willing to let them have free will up to a certain point. So, in reality, you are not giving them the option to chose anything that you don't approve. That is not free will.

And, if you did know what was going to happen before hand, how is that condemning them? I know we are talking about extremes here, life and death. But you know, to God, it is always life. Either life here on earth, or eternal life somewhere else. You are free to chose your future address.

As it says in Deut, 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

 

[Spotlite]

I guess their dead could be in prison awaiting a chance at a choice for salvation.

I think a lot of people believe God predestined the events in the Bible to make His plan for salvation happen the way He wanted it to but then after the resurrection switched to freewill.

That or they see God using predestination for His plan but not for individual salvation. Like God is in total control of everything that goes on except salvation.
Like God made everything happen to ensure His salvation plan would happen the way He wanted it to, but not the actual individual salvation of each person.

Or how about they’re in the hands of a Just God? And being all knowing, what’s the odds that He knew these you’re talking about will not come to him?

He knew Judas would betray. You think Judas could have repented after that? You think he was too far gone for God to deliver? It does say it repented Judas. Isn’t that the spirit reaching for Judas? Knowing Judas would fail and creating him to fail aren’t the same.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

If left up to the free will of man, he sure didn't do a good job of reaching the masses. .

gee... an imperfect man judging that a perfect God is in error.

How do that work?

 

[Artfuldodger]

but if you did that, you would have just eliminated free will.

I have talked to my children about decisions they were making, and advised them not to go down the path they were headed, but they chose to do differently. If I was going to let them make the decision, then I have to be willing to see them get hurt by their decision

But not everything bad that happens to them is based on their actions or choices. Not everything about our fate is based on our free will choices. It so then I would be OK with them learning from their decisions.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Did He or did He not provide a way of escape?

Gentiles were not and are not part of “Israel” except through being grafted in through Jesus.

Look at what you're saying - in one sentence you’re acknowledging that the Gentiles were without hope and saying they had no free will, in the other you acknowledged the failure of Israel.

Before the cross - God was grieved by man in Genesis. Why was that? Was man not acting according to His plan?

Why did God repent of the evil he planned to do to Nineveh in Jonah 3? If Nineveh was acting according to His plan, why did God plan to do evil to them? After they turned from their evil ways - God repented.

How does this happen in Isaiah?
“But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy” The Spirit was grieved because they rebelled???

For the rest - Jesus went to the cross for all, he didn’t die for the sins for most of the world - it was for all of the world. If any man will follow me….

Did the Gentiles have a free will choice to choose God before God chose a remnant out of Israel(based on grace alone) and blinded the rest? Or were they as Paul said, without God and without hope? Read Romans 11 and tell me how it all went down using free will as a basis. Was it God's plan to just see if the free will way would make him blind Israel so the Gentiles could be grafted in? Is that really what Paul is saying in Romans 11?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Did He or did He not provide a way of escape?

Gentiles were not and are not part of “Israel” except through being grafted in through Jesus.

Look at what you're saying - in one sentence you’re acknowledging that the Gentiles were without hope and saying they had no free will, in the other you acknowledged the failure of Israel.

Before the cross - God was grieved by man in Genesis. Why was that? Was man not acting according to His plan?

Why did God repent of the evil he planned to do to Nineveh in Jonah 3? If Nineveh was acting according to His plan, why did God plan to do evil to them? After they turned from their evil ways - God repented.

How does this happen in Isaiah?
“But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy” The Spirit was grieved because they rebelled???

For the rest - Jesus went to the cross for all, he didn’t die for the sins for most of the world - it was for all of the world. If any man will follow me….

I'm saying Israel's failure was God's predestined plan for His way for the Messiah to come and grant salvation to the world(gentiles). God chose Israel for this very purpose. He chose the genealogy of Jesus. It was His plan from before eternity. The Word was with God. The plan is eternal.

God did not leave his plan for salvation up to free will or foreknowledge.

 

[Artfuldodger]

that reasoning is all kinds of flawed.

You are willing to let them have free will up to a certain point. So, in reality, you are not giving them the option to chose anything that you don't approve. That is not free will.

And, if you did know what was going to happen before hand, how is that condemning them? I know we are talking about extremes here, life and death. But you know, to God, it is always life. Either life here on earth, or eternal life somewhere else. You are free to chose your future address.

As it says in Deut, 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

I think the difference is in what we see as evil vs what God does. Did not the Potter make vessels purposely for wrath? Regardless of free will or predestination, I no longer have to figure out of God's ways are Just. Reading Romans 11 about 200 times has taught me that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
That and animals are not evil nor are hurricanes.

 

[Spotlite]

I'm saying Israel's failure was God's predestined plan for His way for the Messiah to come and grant salvation to the world(gentiles). God chose Israel for this very purpose. He chose the genealogy of Jesus. It was His plan from before eternity. The Word was with God. The plan is eternal.

God did not leave his plan for salvation up to free will or foreknowledge.

Free will is just a man made term - the Bible does speak of man forgetting God, not retaining the knowledge of God, following after his own lust, desire, heart. So I’m not really a fan of terminology, but you know what I mean when I say free will.

Foreknowledge - no His salvation doesn’t rely on foreknowledge. He just knows who will and who will not. That’s knowledge.

I can see most of your point with Israel, where we differ is I don’t believe God predestined Israel to fall, I believe he knew they would and he used that people for His plan. My reasoning is God does not tempt with evil.

Now, can you address the questions I asked you in regards to why did God grieve, repent, etc?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Or how about they’re in the hands of a Just God? And being all knowing, what’s the odds that He knew these you’re talking about will not come to him?

He knew Judas would betray. You think Judas could have repented after that? You think he was too far gone for God to deliver? It does say it repented Judas. Isn’t that the spirit reaching for Judas? Knowing Judas would fail and creating him to fail aren’t the same.

Yet God used Judas for his salvation plan before time eternal. Again the foreknowledge was the same as predestination. Judas had no choice but to do what God had already foreseen. His free will was useless.