what changes would you like to see after Pope Benedict XVI?

[Lowjack]

Going Back to the believes of the Primitive chuch means , all having all things in Common , doing away with made up dogmas by men , believing Christ is the Saviour of all mankind and doing away with all pagan doctrines which have infiltrated 99.9 % of Churches today.IMO.

 

[bigdawg25]

I'm not even considering crossing over unless God starts to control my mind to that point. I could be predestined to believe in Jesus & free will. I'm part of the "Elect" just not pre-elected. God doesn't choose people to believe, he chooses believers. "For many are called, but few are chosen" lets me know that. Why else would God call and I not be chosen if it was not up to me to believe?

I am glad that you have found your calling with believing that god's given free will to everyone. I believe in that too, and I think its that free will that makes me explore and question more about my belief system. Sometimes I too wish that pre-destination comes to me rather then this, because then I will have given up this as an excercise in futility.

 

[bigdawg25]

Yes you are getting it. That is what I'm driving at. Catholics and other people who are called by God are not content to sit in the pews and be told to put up and shut up. They what to do things, go places... and act on the Good News. If they are ambitious, they soon become discouraged and some will simply try to find pasture elsewhere and some do. But many will give up...and their potential will never be tapped. But give me one good monk with an Irish twinkle in his eye, or the sense of justice and even heaven is not a limit.

Gordon, you idea definitely seems like something which can make a difference. However, before this discussion, I always thought of monasteries as something which was relegated in history books; and to be honest, no one has even put it on radar right now.

The problem as you mentioned is not caused by lack of monasteries, but rather too regimented structure of catholic church and services which doesnt let people "grow" in faith. The congregation members dont have much say and their feedback doesnt carry as much value as in some other churches. While I know tons of folks who are happy by going through the motions and attend church regularly but there are equal number who feel that their growth has been plateaued hence every parish should have separate sessions for those who wants to deal with more theological questions; and most of it, reduce the amount of guilt they try and induce for folks who dont attend regularly. if they fix all these things, then maybe the need for monasteries is somewhat substituted.

 

[bigdawg25]

Going Back to the believes of the Primitive chuch means , all having all things in Common , doing away with made up dogmas by men , believing Christ is the Saviour of all mankind and doing away with all pagan doctrines which have infiltrated 99.9 % of Churches today.IMO.

what you are asking is turning the wheels of time backwards by two thousand years. Its almost impossible to do that, and instead we have to live with what we have and what we know. as an example, even things as basic as baptisms were done differently in early churches. Their formula was to do it in the name of Jesus only; not as trinity which most of present day churches do.

 

[Ronnie T]

What we need to do is go back to doing Bible things in the Bible way. Not in church way.

 

[gordon 2]

What we need to do is go back to doing Bible things in the Bible way. Not in church way.

This is true to a point perhaps.

If doing bible things means christians are standing still, that the church is unchanging, that christians don't acknowledge that the christians of the 2ed and 17th centuries are not the same people as today's christians because society changes and changes people....then the "bible way" is not a way.

 

[Artfuldodger]

what you are asking is turning the wheels of time backwards by two thousand years. Its almost impossible to do that, and instead we have to live with what we have and what we know. as an example, even things as basic as baptisms were done differently in early churches. Their formula was to do it in the name of Jesus only; not as trinity which most of present day churches do.

While we all know this would be impossible, it is nice to wonder how it would be without all the divisions. If we could all belong to just one big happy, Kum ba yah singing, First Church. We do all have various beliefs and that is why we have all the different Churches. I would rather worship with like Christians who believe the same as me on most dogma. It's not that I can't worship with the various groups every once in awhile but I don't feel comfortable when they start preaching a "percieved" Biblical concept I don't believe in. I can overlook the "Divinity of Mary" long enough to worship with Catholics but not to the point of joining their church. I could overlook the Primative Baptist's "election" beliefs to fellowship with them. What about all the premillennialism, millennialism, amillennialism, trubulation, pretribulation, & all the different judgements? They don't have any bearing on our Salvation but how a Church feels would be important. Being Baptized in the name of Jesus verses the Trinity could also be a deciding factor.

 

[centerpin fan]

This is true to a point perhaps.

If doing bible things means christians are standing still, that the church is unchanging, that christians don't acknowledge that the christians of the 2ed and 17th centuries are not the same people as today's christians because society changes and changes people....then the "bible way" is not a way.

Times change, but human nature doesn't. We are still sinners in need of a Savior.

 

[gemcgrew]

It's called "scripture stacking".

It's called "pointing out the obvious" in hope that someone will be enabled to see it.

 

[bigdawg25]

While we all know this would be impossible, it is nice to wonder how it would be without all the divisions. If we could all belong to just one big happy, Kum ba yah singing, First Church. We do all have various beliefs and that is why we have all the different Churches. I would rather worship with like Christians who believe the same as me on most dogma. It's not that I can't worship with the various groups every once in awhile but I don't feel comfortable when they start preaching a "percieved" Biblical concept I don't believe in. I can overlook the "Divinity of Mary" long enough to worship with Catholics but not to the point of joining their church. I could overlook the Primative Baptist's "election" beliefs to fellowship with them. What about all the premillennialism, millennialism, amillennialism, trubulation, pretribulation, & all the different judgements? They don't have any bearing on our Salvation but how a Church feels would be important. Being Baptized in the name of Jesus verses the Trinity could also be a deciding factor.

I agree with what you are saying. I go to UGA at on campus we have student centers of all the major denominations; that has led me to attend services of denominations which I would not be exposed otherwise. The belief system overall of the congregation definitely becomes important in that regard. So maybe having just one church may make our life easier in that we have dont have to make many choices; but it restricts our beliefs too.

 

[bigdawg25]

It's called "pointing out the obvious" in hope that someone will be enabled to see it.

oh well, what do you think of those verses and arguments in support of free will? you have already made up your mind, but in the process of doing so I am sure you read arguments against predestination (from scriptures too). So what do you make of this contradiction? dont you think that it may not be as black and white as we sometimes tend to discuss?

 

[Artfuldodger]

oh well, what do you think of those verses and arguments in support of free will? you have already made up your mind, but in the process of doing so I am sure you read arguments against predestination (from scriptures too). So what do you make of this contradiction? dont you think that it may not be as black and white as we sometimes tend to discuss?

That is called indoctrination. Did Mary remain a virgin?. What about the Trinity? You can find verses where Jesus says, the Father is greater than I, etc. We can twist verses and pick & choose verses to prove our beliefs are correct.

 

[gemcgrew]

oh well, what do you think of those verses and arguments in support of free will? you have already made up your mind, but in the process of doing so I am sure you read arguments against predestination (from scriptures too).

I was raised in free-will works religion. I am very familiar with the arguments. Even as an unregenerate, when I stumbled upon scripture that made it appear that God was actually in control of creation, I was told that "it is a mystery" or that "who can understand the mind of God?". There are no mysteries in what is revealed.

So what do you make of this contradiction? dont you think that it may not be as black and white as we sometimes tend to discuss?

I do not see contradiction. If scripture appeared to me to contradict scripture, it would be my biblical worldview that is wrong, not scripture.

 

[bigdawg25]

That is called indoctrination. Did Mary remain a virgin?. What about the Trinity? You can find verses where Jesus says, the Father is greater than I, etc. We can twist verses and pick & choose verses to prove our beliefs are correct.

that's true, and I have always tried not to actively cherry pick my own verses, and ignore the rest. I think many Christians today cherry pick bible to such an extent that they no longer should be considered Christians. I grew up in a very open atmosphere, so I have not experienced indoctrination much, but I certainly see how it can influence one's viewpoint.

 

[bigdawg25]

I was raised in free-will works religion. I am very familiar with the arguments. Even as an unregenerate, when I stumbled upon scripture that made it appear that God was actually in control of creation, I was told that "it is a mystery" or that "who can understand the mind of God?". There are no mysteries in what is revealed.


I do not see contradiction. If scripture appeared to me to contradict scripture, it would be my biblical worldview that is wrong, not scripture.

no one here said that the scripture itself is wrong; I was saying that there are verses out there clearly supporting free will, and there are few out there indicating predestination. Now, on the surface there is contradiction there; so theologians try to get a take home message from it. So if you just choose one side of it, then that would be kinda cherry picking too, wouldnt it?

 

[Ronnie T]

no one here said that the scripture itself is wrong; I was saying that there are verses out there clearly supporting free will, and there are few out there indicating predestination. Now, on the surface there is contradiction there; so theologians try to get a take home message from it. So if you just choose one side of it, then that would be kinda cherry picking too, wouldnt it?

I agree. and therein lies the problem of simply quoting "a" scripture. Doing that is a horrible was to study.
I can prove anything if all I have to do is quote a scripture.

 

[Artfuldodger]

no one here said that the scripture itself is wrong; I was saying that there are verses out there clearly supporting free will, and there are few out there indicating predestination. Now, on the surface there is contradiction there; so theologians try to get a take home message from it. So if you just choose one side of it, then that would be kinda cherry picking too, wouldnt it?

This was a discussion, from the link below, on contradicting verses and church divisions? Exerpt from me on that discussion:

I've tried reading the Bible with guidance from God, The Holy Spirit and with guidance from Church elders and I still find verses that contradict each other. I also find chapters that various "associations that follow Jesus" use to distinguish their beliefs. I'm not the only one who finds this or I would think it was just me. Maybe I should ask for guidance on how to ignore these contradictions & different associations. The only thing I can do is read the Bible with guidance from God and let the Bible form me. I would assume that is what Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have done. My question would be, why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?


http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=673809&highlight=against

 

[bigdawg25]

I agree. and therein lies the problem of simply quoting "a" scripture. Doing that is a horrible was to study.
I can prove anything if all I have to do is quote a scripture.

That's Why I personally dont like quoting a verse from scripture unless absolutely needed for an argument. I usually refer to whole chapters or to writings of other theologians because that conveys the true context behind a verse.

 

[barryl]

I tell you what the problem is. Every post starts out like this " This is what I{We} believe" or " I{We} don't believe that." The "TRUTH," is the "TRUTH" no matter what you or I think or say!! Sooner or later you have to decide who your final authority is, God, or man, or yourself. By the way, there are no contridictions in the word of God!! Private interpretations are the problem.

 

[bigdawg25]

This was a discussion, from the link below, on contradicting verses and church divisions? Exerpt from me on that discussion:

I've tried reading the Bible with guidance from God, The Holy Spirit and with guidance from Church elders and I still find verses that contradict each other. I also find chapters that various "associations that follow Jesus" use to distinguish their beliefs. I'm not the only one who finds this or I would think it was just me. Maybe I should ask for guidance on how to ignore these contradictions & different associations. The only thing I can do is read the Bible with guidance from God and let the Bible form me. I would assume that is what Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have done. My question would be, why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?


http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=673809&highlight=against

Art, you have asked a billion dollar question, and the answer to those are can vary from very simple to very complex which may even question the very existence of the holy spirit. Some folks blame us humans for such divisions, and say that its us who caused it. I tend to disagree with such a simplistic view; and in my mind, there exists an inherent contradictions in the bible, and as a result of god given human nature, we try to reconcile with these contradictions, and find an overall picture; and it could very well be that we arrive at different picture. who is to claim that god didnt intend it that way? So, the problem comes when determining which one was correct? and what happens to folks which followed the wrong one ? I dont know, and I would not start calling myself religious until I get some answers regarding that. Till then, I am at peace with being spiritual, and being a student of religion while trying to understand each side.