what changes would you like to see after Pope Benedict XVI?

[Artfuldodger]

being "racist" has become so broad that mere stereotying makes oneself racist nowadays. with being hater similar thing, if one is against gay marriage (as I am) then I automatically hate them, which is not true at all.

I know enough "yankees" and some of them are more pious and moral then some of the folks you see down here. a person's upbringing is what matters, not where they are from.

I know what you mean about perceived racism just for being a white Republican. There is a big difference from not being for affirmative action and being a racist. There is a big difference from not accepting gays for religious reasons than hating them. I believe I should have the right to refuse service to blacks & gays. I don't think that make me a racist, just a discriminator. Insurance companies discriminate every day. They do it for business reasons. I know the difference because in my younger days I was a racist & gay hater. It used to despise me to see a mixed or gay couple. I truly hated them. Again, I don't even know why I hated Yankees, too much Beverly Hillbillies maybe.
I would like to know if you feel unmarried couples are discriminated against as much as gay couples and if not why?
Bigdawg, how do you separate your spiritual side from your religious side until you find the right denomination for you? How important is it for you to find this denomination? Why do you put so much emphasis on creeds as being a part of Christianity? What if you never find the denomination you are looking for?

 

[bigdawg25]

I would like to know if you feel unmarried couples are discriminated against as much as gay couples and if not why?

Bigdawg, how do you separate your spiritual side from your religious side until you find the right denomination for you? How important is it for you to find this denomination? Why do you put so much emphasis on creeds as being a part of Christianity? What if you never find the denomination you are looking for?

I am not sure, I have never met a real life gay couple, but if I do then I think I wont be feeling completely comfortable as a traditional couple. I guess do indeed discriminate between those.

Till I find the perfect blend of theological belief or denomination, I just feel like god is more deistic in nature, and he wants "us" to figure out the answers ourself using the skills he has given us.

I place some importance in creeds because I think they are cliff notes of the religion itself, and regardless of what individual churches call it (we have had several creeds in past two millenia); I just want churches and their members to clearly know in their belief system. I see my friends attend churches which have huge congregations with music and entertainment, and they talk so little theology except about "god's love" that I feel whether they even know what they are "celebrating" there. I dont want a watered down version of Christianity because that in my book is far worse then selecting a particular version of theology, and believing in that.

for me personally its not absolutely essential to find the right denomination or even religion; I grew up in a household where none of my parents were really religious, but were really spiritual, and believed in charities (mostly church supported ones). They got their quota of socializing among like minded people there, and I would be perfectly fine doing that too because inspite of so many wrongs I see with catholic church, I still feel connected with them because I see good done by them everyday.

as Late Mother Teresa (a beatified nun) used to say "I see God in every human being. When I wash the leper's wounds I feel I am nursing the Lord himself. Is it not a beautiful experience?".

 

[Artfuldodger]

And speaking of Mother Teresa:
"When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?" And Jesus will answer them, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/teresa94.html

I agree he leaves a lot up to us as individuals. I look at the whole concept of accepting salvation as being left up to us. God's grace, Christ's suffering, dying, resurrection, & ascension. Guidance from the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, a big AND, our choice to accept or deny.
Matthew 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (our choice to deny)

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us. (our choice to deny)

Jeremiah 17:10 I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (repent? is this a works?)

Titus 2:12 Training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, (that speaks tons of free will)

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. ( we'd better use our free will and "see fit")

John 11:35 Jesus wept. (Jesus even had free will and somehow turned off his foreknowledge to allow him to cry.)

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, (how could I possibly repent without a free will?)

God has free will, Jesus was the Son of God. I was made in the image of God. I can be obedient. I can be angry. I can weep.

 

[gordon 2]

I like to se ethem going back to true Christianity or Yeshua Sitting on David's throne all religions done away with.

Yes. But would you praise this song for your community's school commencement?:

 

[gordon 2]

Times change, but human nature doesn't. We are still sinners in need of a Savior.

Yes---and---- no. With all respect, I slant on the side of nature and nurture when it comes to human nature.

So we are potential sinners for the blood of our fathers and mothers which courses in our veins since Adam and Eve. But also we are sinners or saints for the ways our societies have fashioned us.

And the extent we are sinners for our social nurture is never constant. Think of the German People( a very christian nation) before WW1 for example and germans today. And there for think of the sins of the Jews and those of Christians.

Society has a degree of ( for lack of a better word) peer- pressure that invites more and less sin. Think of the effect of patriotism, ( nationalism) for example, and on how far individual moral outlooks are influenced for it.

So, if I am even mildly right, the sins and excess of a pacific nation will most likely be less or to a different degree( a different temper) than for that of a militaristic nation with a social mind set of "manifest destiny" or for a societies' religious ideas and beliefs on salvation, Heaven and H A D E S, political outlook, and social expectations... etc.

In other words we all are sinners, but what ministered to my great grand-fathers during the recent roman occupation of Northern Europe does not minister fully today, because nurture has made Jack duller or brighter to sin, to salvation.

I guess what I'm saying is Old Time Religion is not good enough... and I always fear that it is is what some people might read for the sinner and scripture, and for fear of backslide we keep on to our non productive paradigms and their beautiful but impotent fractals.

 

[Ronnie T]

What Christ needs is disciples rather than biblical scholars.
.

 

[gemcgrew]

"you gotta sing when the Spirit says sing".

Why?

 

[formula1]

Re:

I think, if you'll give it a good study, you'll see that in the above chapters Jesus was speaking directly to His apostles, and only to his apostles.
He was speaking concerning their being able to have much to teach that they didn't already know.
It would be a mistake for me to accert that everything I say or believe fallings within those verses.

The Holy Spirit would shew the apostles things to come.

Ronnie, you know how much I love you brother!

I just want to go on record that I believe your assertion is false, by a myriad of evidence both in these chapters, in Acts, and in the rest of the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit teaches all believers(even on occasion, things to come) and indwells all believers just for this purpose, that is, to guide us into all Truth. How can it be possible to walk in the Spirit without the guiding of the Holy Spirit?

I will give you this on your point, that is, some think they hear but do not and it is evident in their fruit. But Jesus said, 'My sheep know my voice'! In truth, I know you know it. But your assertion could lead many away from the great blessing that is the Holy Spirit in the lives of each believer!

God bless you my brother and keep searching!

 

[gemcgrew]

What Christ needs is disciples rather than biblical scholars.

In what other areas do you view Christ as lacking?

 

[Artfuldodger]

The Holy Spirit teaches all believers(even on occasion, things to come) and indwells all believers just for this purpose, that is, to guide us into all Truth. How can it be possible to walk in the Spirit without the guiding of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit does indwell in us and guides us. There are verses in Acts that tell us this as you said.
John 14:26 is part of Jesus' Farewell Discourse where he is speaking to his disciples before leaving the Earth.
I do not know if his "Farewell Discourse" pertains to all Christians. Sounds like a good topic.

Barnes' notes on the Bible;
Shall teach you all things - All things which it was needful for them to understand in the apostolic office, and particularly those things which they were not prepared then to hear or could not then understand. See John 16:12. Compare the notes at Matthew 10:19-20. This was a full promise that they would be inspired, and that in organizing the church, and in recording the truths necessary for its edification, they would be under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:19-20
19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

For it is - the Spirit of your Father, etc. - This was an extraordinary promise, and was literally fulfilled to those first preachers of the Gospel;

 

[bigdawg25]

What Christ needs is disciples rather than biblical scholars.
.

How can we know what he wants or doesnt want. In my view he wants everyone, and maybe we want him rather then the other way around; even atheists like dawkins say the same thing; we need god more then he needs us.

15th century poet Milton put it best in his sonnet "on his blindness" in which he was refering as to how does a blind man like him makes himself useful to god.

"
When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."

 

[bigdawg25]

And speaking of Mother Teresa:
"When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?" And Jesus will answer them, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/teresa94.html

I agree he leaves a lot up to us as individuals. I look at the whole concept of accepting salvation as being left up to us. God's grace, Christ's suffering, dying, resurrection, & ascension. Guidance from the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, a big AND, our choice to accept or deny.
Matthew 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (our choice to deny)

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us. (our choice to deny)

Jeremiah 17:10 I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (repent? is this a works?)

Titus 2:12 Training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, (that speaks tons of free will)

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. ( we'd better use our free will and "see fit")

John 11:35 Jesus wept. (Jesus even had free will and somehow turned off his foreknowledge to allow him to cry.)

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, (how could I possibly repent without a free will?)

God has free will, Jesus was the Son of God. I was made in the image of God. I can be obedient. I can be angry. I can weep.

I was referring to few of the above verses when I told gemccrew about scriptural evidence for free will. "human interpretation" of the above verses lead to nothing but to the conclusion of free will; and there is lies the dilemma. There is no way someone can fault the interpretation of above verses as something other then free will; in similar token same with verses hinting at predestination. I can tell folks that in final analysis, I think the free will theology is what god favors, but that's just that, a hunch; and I although folks like wesley and Arminius provided arguments for them, I still dont think this debate can end conclusively any time soon.

 

[gordon 2]

How can we know what he wants or doesnt want. In my view he wants everyone, and maybe we want him rather then the other way around; even atheists like dawkins say the same thing; we need god more then he needs us.

15th century poet Milton put it best in his sonnet "on his blindness" in which he was refering as to how does a blind man like him makes himself useful to god.

"
When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."

Yea. But we do not remember the fundamental of Catholic Confirmation ( which is the choice to be a deciple in my view) and the cathechism which accompanies us there with its many biblical examples of how Jesus explains to many, "Follow me." And thereafter, for the Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letters where with now the showing up of the Comforter all are called to go through the Narrow Gate now available to all, or in my view to be followers of The Way and deciples...etc...

 

[Lowjack]

what you are asking is turning the wheels of time backwards by two thousand years. Its almost impossible to do that, and instead we have to live with what we have and what we know. as an example, even things as basic as baptisms were done differently in early churches. Their formula was to do it in the name of Jesus only; not as trinity which most of present day churches do.

It is not Impossible , we've done it.!

 

[bigdawg25]

It is not Impossible , we've done it.!

done what? I cant see any present day denomination doing things like early churches; if there are any, then kindly enlighten me.

 

[centerpin fan]

I cant see any present day denomination doing things like early churches ...

Examples?

 

[bigdawg25]

Examples?

maybe you mis-read what I wrote. I said I do NOT see them being exactly like early churches. Catholic church comes close, but still, we are a bit different now then 2000 yrs ago; it was lowjack who said they have done it.

 

[centerpin fan]

I said I do NOT see them being exactly like early churches.

I know, but how are they not alike?

Here is Justin Martyr's description of early church worship:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration

Except for weekly communion, most churches do something very similar to that.

 

[Lowjack]

done what? I cant see any present day denomination doing things like early churches; if there are any, then kindly enlighten me.

can't show it to you only in person , if you ever come to Miami let me know , I will show you what the real church is about.

 

[bigdawg25]

I know, but how are they not alike?

Here is Justin Martyr's description of early church worship:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration

Except for weekly communion, most churches do something very similar to that.

Ok, maybe we were talking about two different aspects of it. I was refering to church belief whereas you are talking about church worship. Church beliefs have changed, evolved whatever you want to call it, and the church structure is totally different then in early church days. Things like infallibility of the pope are recent constructs. Also, in early churches there was nothing like "bible study", and it was just liturgy and creed which people were familiar with. Once the cat came out of the bag so as to speak,with bible being translated into common languages, and everyone read it, and churches had to develop advanced theology to explain it to the common folks. this Progress, for better or worse, was what I was saying cannot to turned back. Even communion every week is a rather new thing.