hobbs27
Senior Member
Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world
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The spirit teaches
- Thread starter Vectorman
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Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
My repentance was knowing that I could never stop sinning and thus needed the blood of Christ to wash my sins away. It takes nothing from me and all from God.
Vectorman has a clearer picture of God's grace than your 2000 year old church ever had. He does not appear legitimately disturbed in his views. I would say that my beliefs align more with his than with yours.
If you think I'm trolling then please put me back on your ignore list. But before you do please answer this;
"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world."
It's not that hard of a question. What was the condition of the Gentiles before they were grafted in as in Romans 11?
Have you ever even read Romans 11? Answer this for me and then put me back on your ignore list.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Yes, what does that mean? What was their fate before the grafting?
Vectorman
Senior Member
When or where did I claim special knowledge? I'm just reading the book. Paul who was the apostle to gentiles not only saw it, he's the one who said it. I just believe it.
Vectorman
Senior Member
So no one in the last 2000 years has been able to see that salvation is by faith alone without works?
Church Fathers on Justification by Faith
Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).
Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.
Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).
Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).
Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."
Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."
Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."
Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."
Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Proverbs 26:12(NIV)
Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
Regardless of if we are members of a 2000 year old Church, a 500 year old Protestant Church of the reformation, or a 2 year old church gathered in a coffeeshop, none of us should be wise enough to think we have all the answers.
It is possible to see how a denomination can place blinders on our understanding. I'm not saying one should abandon their denomination, just that they should be able to see beyond it as an individual seeking understanding.
Just because something is taught for hundreds of years doesn't make it right. They might have been wise in their own eyes.
Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for them.
Regardless of if we are members of a 2000 year old Church, a 500 year old Protestant Church of the reformation, or a 2 year old church gathered in a coffeeshop, none of us should be wise enough to think we have all the answers.
It is possible to see how a denomination can place blinders on our understanding. I'm not saying one should abandon their denomination, just that they should be able to see beyond it as an individual seeking understanding.
Just because something is taught for hundreds of years doesn't make it right. They might have been wise in their own eyes.
Vectorman
Senior Member
All I know is that Heaven would be a miserable place if we had to spend eternity listening to people talk about all the things they did or didn't do to get there.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
How does one go about witnessing to a lost soul if you've got to tell them they must repent of sin in order to be saved? That seems like a hard task.
First you tell them Jesus died for their sins, then you tell them it comes with a stipulation. What if it's a drunkard? He believes Jesus died for his sins but years later he still suffers from alcoholism. He could eventually believe his salvation was lost due to his inability to quit drinking.
Why not tell him that God will stand by him as a Father to a Son regardless.
First you tell them Jesus died for their sins, then you tell them it comes with a stipulation. What if it's a drunkard? He believes Jesus died for his sins but years later he still suffers from alcoholism. He could eventually believe his salvation was lost due to his inability to quit drinking.
Why not tell him that God will stand by him as a Father to a Son regardless.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Hades.
Vectorman
Senior Member
I really don't like it when these discussions go from sharing ideas to arguments. I've let this one go way past sharing ideas. I do enjoy reading peoples opinions about topics and finding out why they believe what they do. Hobbs suggested earlier today that I read Josephus to understand why he's firmly planted in the 70ad camp. I have been reading Josephus' writings this afternoon and they are excellent reading. Not that I would put it above scripture in finding truth but it gives you insight into the history, context and culture of people living in israel during biblical times. Now, it will take a while for me to get to 70ad because I'm starting from the beginning. I may or may not agree with Hobbs after reading that chapter but it's all about searching for truth. I don't get offended if you don't agree with me on a topic and don't be offended if I say something that you don't agree with. You don't really need to accuse me of being part of a cult or of being here just to make people mad and to stroke my ego. I guess what I'm really saying folks is to lighten up a little and enjoy the sharing of ideas.
Vectorman
Senior Member
I do see that there are times when what you were expected to believe was different than other times. Jesus asked Peter "who do you say that I am?" Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." this is what God had revealed to him and was all he was expected to believe. He could not possibly believe in the death, burial and resurrection because it hadn't even happened yet. This was a time of transition.
About Eph 2:12, It describes a time when gentiles were not being saved. I don't think that it was because God didn't allow them in, I think it was because they(gentiles) chose not to. There is a rare exception or 2 in the old testament where gentiles were saved. 2 Kings 5 comes to mind when Naaman the Syrian army commander was healed of leprosy and believed the God of Israel.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Redefining the original doctrine after 2000 years due to a "NEW" bible study? Yeah. That's claiming special knowledge.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
So you like spreading your ideas, but you don't want anyone to challenge them. I'll say this. If your ideas are indefensible or you don't want to/can't defend them, then an open forum is probably not a good place to "share" them.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Even when they are defensible and 100% in agreement with scripture, man is not easily moved. This is a good thing though, so we're no blown around from one doctrine to another.
It doesn't matter if others accept what you have come to believe as long as it is good with you, and scripture supports it.
It doesn't matter if others accept what you have come to believe as long as it is good with you, and scripture supports it.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Do you really believe those guys did not think repentance from sin is necessary for salvation?
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Scripture has and continues to be bent into diametrically opposing views so I'm not convinced your last statement is very sound advice
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
I'm honestly afraid to hear this answer.
Vectorman
Senior Member
The possibility of a different gospel for gentiles was not something that I pulled out of the air. I simply read in Galations 2:
2 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles.(Why would he need to share with them the gospel he preaches to the gentiles if it was the same gospel that Peter preached to the Jews?)I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.(under the law) 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
Late in his ministry, Peter would tell the Jews to go to Pauls epistles for understanding about salvation.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,(For a Jew) which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Reading these things I can come up with no other explanation other than Paul's gospel to the gentiles was different than Peter's.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Vectorman
Senior Member
If I look at what Augustine said:
Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Reading this it becomes very clear to me that he did not think that repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.
