Jew Gentile division?

[Artfuldodger]

What does this mean in Romans 2:12-13?

When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Wasn't this written after the event of Ephesians 2:15?

by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

If Christ abolished or ended or set aside the Law, why is Paul still telling us that "Gentiles will die when they sin and Jews will be judged by the Law if they fail to keep it?"

Is Paul still of the mindset that Jews and Gentiles are different describing one fate for Jews and another for Gentiles?
Did he forget that Christ died on the cross to abolish the Law that was causing the division?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Will the Jew be judged by the written Law against which he has sinned, and the Gentile by the unwritten law of conscience against which he too has sinned?

If so, why did Christ die on the cross to abolish the Law that was causing the division?

 

[hummerpoo]

Eph. 2:15

G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If the Law was binding until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70, why was the Jew able to divorce his dead wife(Law) and remarry Christ?

Paul said in Ephesians that Jesus “abolished” the “law of commandments” by means of the death of “his flesh,” and the shedding of his “blood” when he died on “the cross.”
This act brought peace and united Jews and Gentiles into one people.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Eph. 2:15

G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

Regardless of what type of Law Christ abolished on the Cross, it allowed Jews to remove it's hold on them and divorce their dead wife and marry Christ.

It also brought those Gentiles who were far away, without hope and God, into the commonwealth of Israel.
It made the two men one. No longer was there the Jew or the Gentile.

The type of Law that had such a binding was abolished on the cross. Ceremonial? Perhaps. But if it had to be removed to allow the grafting in of the Gentile, then so be it. If it had to be removed in order for the Jews to marry Christ, I'm glad it's gone. If it was ceremonial, I'm OK with that.

To abolish
To supersede something that is better than itself
To make void
To vanish away

 

[hummerpoo]

Whose law are you talking about?

 

[Israel]

Paul had the wonderful job of undercutting any misplaced hope that could possibly seek to usurp Christ's primacy in all things including the heart and mind.

Since he'd learned (and knew) it couldn't be done, he was he was able to speak freely of what is only possible to and with God, and what is utterly impossible with man. Salvation.

There's an odd thing a disciple may discover in his quest, an inward boast of having the better "compass". We see it commonly played out, even occasionally here...in matters of things called "morals". Each to each may maintain a position of having the better compass, or at least one "just as good" as another. It's not unusual for a disciple to hear from an unbeliever..."my compass is every bit as good as yours...I support charities, I take in the homeless, I give my body to be burned...etc, etc" And it's equally not unusual to hear, in some form, of the boast of Jesus...or the law, or some spiritual sounding thing as a superior...compass.


But then the question remains to each, "do you ever, have you ever...found yourself going against this compass you boast of?" What good then of having the "better compass"...if, and when it is manifestly not heeded? Will we present our own suffering as sufficient? "See how I work and suffer under the weight of this superior morality!"...?(and who hasn't tried to take a stand on "good intentions"...and discovered a very strong thing?)

Faith must inevitably strip away all and any sense of coming to God upon our (esteemed) "right doing"...and any and all sense of prohibition when discovered in wrong doing. If our boast is in our "having the better thing" whether it be law (of any form), or a more sensitive conscience, is found coming to the fore...we will find then ourselves rightly condemned by it when it is made manifest (as it must be) all those places we have abandoned it...in favor of our own selves. Every mouth is stopped, before God, except that One who ever liveth to make intercession for the saints.

He is greater than all we think we have we may present to our own comfort, or boast, or security. Our testimony is always and only to the righteous One, preeiminent in all things, and He alone will show...what He alone is, and has.

The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those that are His.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Whose law are you talking about?

God's

 

[hummerpoo]

God's

δο�γμα/dogma doesn't look like God's to me.

5 times in Bible

Acts 16:
4 Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees(G1378) which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

Acts 17:
7 and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees(G1378) of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.”

Eph. 2:
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances(G1378), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Col. 2:
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees(G1378) against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Luke 2:
1 Now in those days a decree(G1378) went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

 

[hobbs27]

Ephesians 2:15 is concerning the law of Moses. Who did Moses recieve the Law from?

http://biblehub.com/greek/3551.htm

 

[Artfuldodger]

Meyer's NT Commentary
Ephesians 2:15. Τὴν ἔχθÏ�αν] This, still included in dependence upon λÏ�σας, is now the μεσότοιχον broken down by Christ: (namely) the enmity. It is, after the example of Theodoret (comp. τινές in Chrysostom), understood by the majority (including Luther, Calvin, Bucer, Clarius, Grotius, Calovius, Morus, Rosenmüller, Flatt, Meier, Holzhausen, Baumgarten-Crusius, de Wette) of the Mosaic law as the cause of the enmity between Jew and Gentile, in which case the moral law is by some included, by others excluded.

 

[Artfuldodger]

How could man's law do this?

12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

If man's law, why would it take Christ doing this?

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.

Even if it was man's law Christ removed it and allowed Gentiles to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel.

Romans 11 shows this as well. God chose a remnant from national Israel and blinded the rest of Israel until the full number of Gentiles was or were grafted in.

There was a separation that was put back together by the Cross.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 11:17
But some of these branches from Abraham's tree--some of the people of Israel--have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God's special olive tree.

Perhaps it was the Gentile man who was separating himself from the the Jews. Perhaps it was the Jew's own man made laws that separated them from the Gentiles.

Maybe the Jews ate and dressed the way they did to distinguish themselves from the Gentile because of their own man made laws.

Regardless of whose or what law caused the separation, Christ died on the Cross to remove this Law which broke down the wall between the Jews and Gentiles.

It was an event in time when this separation was ended. Even if man caused it, Christ tore it down on the Cross.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Here is part of this great mystery. God's gifts are irrevocable.

Romans 11:30-33
Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

Man this should be right up the predestination believers alley but for some reason they don't agree with it. It even has the election of a remnant and hardening of the rest. A remnant chosen by grace.
I guess it goes against the "out of time" sequence required to believe in the Reformed view of salvation from Creation.

 

[hummerpoo]

Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

That preaching, which revealed the fulfilled/perfected Law, and was sealed/culminated at the cross, was what put an end to those "ordinances" which had (supposedly) made it sinful to walk too far on the Sabbath (and a multitude of fictitious interpretations, many of which created enmity between the Jews and others).

The Law as revealed through Moses creates a degree of separation between God's People and those who are not, but does not create enmity along ethnic lines.

Touching on ethnicity; the context of "Gentile" as used in the new testament must be watched very carefully, as it very often has meaning beyond ethnicity.

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

 

[hobbs27]

Regardless of what type of Law Christ abolished on the Cross, it allowed Jews to remove it's hold on them and divorce their dead wife and marry Christ.

It also brought those Gentiles who were far away, without hope and God, into the commonwealth of Israel.
It made the two men one. No longer was there the Jew or the Gentile.

The type of Law that had such a binding was abolished on the cross. Ceremonial? Perhaps. But if it had to be removed to allow the grafting in of the Gentile, then so be it. If it had to be removed in order for the Jews to marry Christ, I'm glad it's gone. If it was ceremonial, I'm OK with that.

To abolish
To supersede something that is better than itself
To make void
To vanish away

So, you've been reading Hosea? Concerning the adulteress wife.

 

[hummerpoo]

Maybe the Jews ate and dressed the way they did to distinguish themselves from the Gentile because of their own man made laws.

Can it not be observed today, as then, that many who claim the Name take it as a mark of pride, while others are genuinely humbled.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Whose law are you talking about?

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Is this too man's law or are you suggesting Paul goes back and forth as to which law Christ nailed to the cross?

What law is Romans 7:2-6 describing by the example of a woman being discharged from the law of her husband when he dies? I believe it to be the Law of Moses that this example gives which allows men to have died to the law through the body of Christ.

I'm willing to say that perhaps the Cross only remove our legal indebtedness or punishement to the law but regardless I think Paul is talking about the Law of Moses that Christ removed our legal indebtedness from. It's the same law he tells us about in Ephesians and the other epistles.
Christ did not die to remove our legal indebtedness from man's laws.

Now if Christ removed our legal indebtedness from this law, then it's the same as removing the law. In this way he fulfilled the law. We are free from the law even if it still exist. Christ removed the binding nature of the law.

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law rather he fulfilled it by beating it. He beat God at God's own game by living a sinless life.(Just my weird way of saying it) He fought the law and won. In this way he fulfilled the law.
He also fulfilled the law by coming to the earth as prophesied. In this way he was the law. He was the Law before and after the law was the Law.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I would think the Reformed view would be that since Christ was the way in prophesy even before the Law of Moses came, that this would mean the Law actually never existed. Not that it was eternal but that only Christ was eternal because he was the Word that was with God from before Creation. Jesus was the Law of God being eternal. He existed before and after the Law of Moses.
The Law of Moses had a beginning and an end within time when Christ fulfilled it on the Cross.

 

[hummerpoo]

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Is this too man's law or are you suggesting Paul goes back and forth as to which law Christ nailed to the cross?

What law is Romans 7:2-6 describing by the example of a woman being discharged from the law of her husband when he dies? I believe it to be the Law of Moses that this example gives which allows men to have died to the law through the body of Christ.

I'm willing to say that perhaps the Cross only remove our legal indebtedness or punishement to the law but regardless I think Paul is talking about the Law of Moses that Christ removed our legal indebtedness from. It's the same law he tells us about in Ephesians and the other epistles.
Christ did not die to remove our legal indebtedness from man's laws.

Now if Christ removed our legal indebtedness from this law, then it's the same as removing the law. In this way he fulfilled the law. We are free from the law even if it still exist. Christ removed the binding nature of the law.

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law rather he fulfilled it by beating it. He beat God at God's own game by living a sinless life.(Just my weird way of saying it) He fought the law and won. In this way he fulfilled the law.
He also fulfilled the law by coming to the earth as prophesied. In this way he was the law. He was the Law before and after the law was the Law.

Trying a few other translations should solve the "legal indebtedness".

As to the dead husband analogy, I confess I've never been able to make it work under any interpretation of the passage.