Law vs grace

[1gr8bldr]

John 1:6
There was a man sent from God whose name was John.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Strange indeed.

This you probably know, I just put this to give the context of having "come down"

Jesus the Bread of Life
…32Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34“Sir,” they said, “give us this bread at all times.”…

 

[1gr8bldr]

He did redeem, they just did not realize the magnitude of it
21 “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel"

 

[1gr8bldr]

Trying to recall all that was said of him by the people before he was killed..... Son of David, you are the Christ, the son of God..... any others? These then I can reverse study. I don't recall anyone specifically using "firstborn"?????

 

[Israel]

What takes its practice more seriously than He who allows man "to do" is not yet able to see the Christ.

And will ultimately show it takes neither practice, nor the Lord who commends to it, seriously.


(The High Priest rending his garments)

 

[Israel]

He did redeem, they just did not realize the magnitude of it
21 “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel"

Amen.
The magnitude.

 

[Spineyman]

The people were divided, at one point he laid low because he was afraid they would almost force him as king. Many recognized that miracles were meant to be proof, Prophet likened to Moses. However, once he was arrested, all hope was lost. Even the disciples walking along the road after his death, not realizing they were talking to Jesus, was so disappointed, they had thought he was the one. So I believe this was a major hindrance to their believing he was the Christ.

Not so, they let their human emotion over ride the Word of God. That is why it is extremely important for us to memorize His Word, or hide it in our hearts the Bible says. Because times of doubt and despair will come upon you and you have to fall back on God's Word and not how we feel.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Spineyman, any thoughts on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gr8bldr View Post
It don't work..... with modern day Christianity. Matt slicks, as posted by Spiney Man implies that since they expected the coming messiah that they are saved. However, none of them expected him to be God ... and modern day Christianity believes you believe Jesus is God for salvation. "What were they expecting" would be a great discussion topic. end quote

I never thought of that. Maybe Spineyman will respond.
Did the Old Testament believers who had faith in the Messiah, know that he was God?
If they did believe this, did they believe Jesus was 1/3 of the always being Trinity or did they believe in Oneness. That God the Father incarnate as man and became the Son?

 

[1gr8bldr]

Not so, they let their human emotion over ride the Word of God. That is why it is extremely important for us to memorize His Word, or hide it in our hearts the Bible says. Because times of doubt and despair will come upon you and you have to fall back on God's Word and not how we feel.

Opinion, yea, but you start it with "not so". Do you realize they carried no word of God with them. No pocket NT or OT. If they had of, it still would have been a matter of deciding if Jesus were that one in the word of God. Just as today, the word of God is much open to question. So they had to decide based on what expectations they had of the coming Christ, does he fit this criteria? John must have thought he could be mistaken for this criteria because he tells us "he is not the Christ". However, I do believe we should hide his word in our hearts, we all now have access to a copy from which to memorize, this so that we will not be tossed back in forth from every wave of teaching

 

[gordon 2]

Not so, they let their human emotion over ride the Word of God. That is why it is extremely important for us to memorize His Word, or hide it in our hearts the Bible says. Because times of doubt and despair will come upon you and you have to fall back on God's Word and not how we feel.

That would be alot of memorizing?! And what happens when your memory starts going south as one gets older? Or one's memory is biased by partisanship, ideology, needs of social and economic security, all good stuff independent of emotion? That's a lot of dependence on scripture in my view... Are blind and deaf people handicapped in their faith walk or how about average IQ folk not to mention many other cases where memorizing would be an issue?

 

[1gr8bldr]

That would be alot of memorizing?! And what happens when your memory starts going south as one gets older? Or one's memory is biased by partisanship, ideology, needs of social and economic security, all good stuff independent of emotion? That's a lot of dependence on scripture in my view... Are blind and deaf people handicapped in their faith walk or how about average IQ folk not to mention many other cases where memorizing would be an issue?

I may be far off, however, I don't think they had much of a source to remember from as compared to what we now have. I don't know.... thinking out loud.... They probably either repeated the Psalms regularly or had them taught to them. It was more likely the rituals they did that pointed to the Christ. Somebody help me out here as to what Jewish life was like during Jesus day. How were they taught, in what ways were the expectation of the Christ passed down? I really wish I understood all the temple traditions as to how it points to Jesus

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Male children were schooled in Torah from a very young age. They attended temple at a minimum of once a week, where Torah was read every time. They memorized all the prophets teachings. People think that because it was long ago, they were backward people. Not so. Paul was one of the most educated men in his day and it is estimated that he could speak and write in 14 different languages.

As far as the jewish men knowing the Torah and the prophets, they were, for the most part, very educated and aware of the teaching.

 

[gordon 2]

I may be far off, however, I don't think they had much of a source to remember from as compared to what we now have. I don't know.... thinking out loud.... They probably either repeated the Psalms regularly or had them taught to them. It was more likely the rituals they did that pointed to the Christ. Somebody help me out here as to what Jewish life was like during Jesus day. How were they taught, in what ways were the expectation of the Christ passed down? I really wish I understood all the temple traditions as to how it points to Jesus

I think that in the case of Mary's family ( relatives) they were a charismatic folk. I'm not sure charismatic is the right word here. But if you pay attention to the language used as to the interplay between Mary and her cousin Elisabeth you'll know what I mean. Elisabeth:
"She and her husband Zachariah were "righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless"... plus Zack was a priest.


Now as how the ordinary apostles like Peter, said a fisherman, got to walking or following a person they knew as the Messiah, possibly learning it from John the Baptist.... I know little... Pappy might of just hit the nail on the head.

 

[gordon 2]

Male children were schooled in Torah from a very young age. They attended temple at a minimum of once a week, where Torah was read every time. They memorized all the prophets teachings. People think that because it was long ago, they were backward people. Not so. Paul was one of the most educated men in his day and it is estimated that he could speak and write in 14 different languages.

As far as the jewish men knowing the Torah and the prophets, they were, for the most part, very educated and aware of the teaching.

All this memorizing sure did not pay off...if I understood correctly--cause they could not for the most part hear, see or understand Jesus. I have to wonder if it is not the same today.... for some, for many...etc...

 

[1gr8bldr]

All this memorizing sure did not pay off...if I understood correctly--cause they could not for the most part hear, see or understand Jesus. I have to wonder if it is not the same today.... for some, for many...etc...

On one hand though, he basically spoke in riddles. Would have been hard to come to a conclusion of who he was due to this. However, it looked as though it was not up to them but only to those whom the Father gave him, whom eyes were open, whom had ears to hear, whom had been given the keys. I for one sure don't claim if I had been in that day, I would have known for sure

 

[Artfuldodger]

On one hand though, he basically spoke in riddles. Would have been hard to come to a conclusion of who he was due to this. However, it looked as though it was not up to them but only to those whom the Father gave him, whom eyes were open, whom had ears to hear, whom had been given the keys. I for one sure don't claim if I had been in that day, I would have known for sure

He wasn't called the Stumbling Stone for nothing. Interesting that Jesus was a stumbling stone for some to bring the "others" to light. Just think how great his light will be to the stumblers when the stone is removed from the pathway.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Why did people flock to John the baptist? He did not go to them, they came to him. Why, because people heard of his message. It was not wordy as would be preaching. it was one main point. The forgiveness of sins. Hmmmmm, So as I see it, the "religious" had crafted their game in such a way to trump, Michael Jordon, Cam Newton, etc. Religion had become a way to exalt oneself. Look at me, am I not great. People observing had come to realize that I just can't live up to this, and it brought about guilt. So when they heard of John's baptismal, rather than think they could face God on their own merit, they flocked to John. I suppose those did not stumble, but the one's relying on their spiritual resume, they fell on their face. Just thinking out loud.

 

[gordon 2]

On one hand though, he basically spoke in riddles. Would have been hard to come to a conclusion of who he was due to this. However, it looked as though it was not up to them but only to those whom the Father gave him, whom eyes were open, whom had ears to hear, whom had been given the keys. I for one sure don't claim if I had been in that day, I would have known for sure

Yes. Those the father gave him. In this regard I identify with Peter... who given to Jesus... had much caution about the world!

In any case... If I don't have a chance to say it later merry Christmas to you and to all the Forum Participants--- even the ones that annoy me the most... by participating to infrequently... and those who challenge my biases...

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why did people flock to John the baptist? He did not go to them, they came to him. Why, because people heard of his message. It was not wordy as would be preaching. it was one main point. The forgiveness of sins. Hmmmmm, So as I see it, the "religious" had crafted their game in such a way to trump, Michael Jordon, Cam Newton, etc. Religion had become a way to exalt oneself. Look at me, am I not great. People observing had come to realize that I just can't live up to this, and it brought about guilt. So when they heard of John's baptismal, rather than think they could face God on their own merit, they flocked to John. I suppose those did not stumble, but the one's relying on their spiritual resume, they fell on their face. Just thinking out loud.

I wonder how many believed after hearing John but changed their mind when Jesus showed up. Jesus not living up to the picture in their mind of a King.

 

[Spineyman]

I wonder how many believed after hearing John but changed their mind when Jesus showed up. Jesus not living up to the picture in their mind of a King.

None, those whom the Father drew, came. Those whom He didn't draw didn't come! In Jesus' priestly prayer in John 17, He explains that fact.

 

[Artfuldodger]

None, those whom the Father drew, came. Those whom He didn't draw didn't come! In Jesus' priestly prayer in John 17, He explains that fact.

Those in the Old Testament times that were called, given faith, and were justified. Were they given the knowledge that the future Messiah would be God? If that is a prerequisite for salvation as most Christians believe today, was that a prerequisite then? Did those who come then know this as those who are drawn today?