The Enlightenment

[ambush80]

Spotlite,

Here's another example of how religion seems to lead reasonable, rational people away from to what a Humanist, secularist would see as the obvious humane, merciful action.

http://forum.gon.com/threads/scientist-to-be-punished-for-gene-editing.935884/page-2#post-11576162

 

[bullethead]

Agreed, just curious how it’s deternined a religious issue if “we”.....

Because that is what religious people claim all the time.
They have something special. Its spiritual. You other people can't feel it.
Religious are the chosen, the elect, the special. All religions think they are more "better" then the next despite them all having the same problems and same good fortunes, and same morals, and same sinister deeds as the non religious.

 

[bullethead]

Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.

But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.

Healthier?
Hey, Id be all in agreement if the believers of one God never got sick or came down with debilitating diseases or were born with defects.
But it just isnt so.
Studies show owning a dog makes you healthy too. If you own a dog and believe in God....and watch your weight, ate healthy, and do things in moderation and take your Dog for walks 3 or4 times a day....I dont doubt you are healthier.
If you are 4'10" 268lb, pall mall filterless smoker, live on Fast Food and hard liquor and never leave the couch and also have 14 dogs in the house that NEVER go outside to do their business....well you better believe in a God.

2nd part:
Depends on what god is believed in and where and of your in the majority or minority.

 

[WaltL1]

As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce. My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good. You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you. There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue. I hope we can identify it.

I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this. It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.

This is as straight forward as I can make it. I don't think I can do a better job than this. The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings. I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy. There are other examples I gave that included politics and science. Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?

A more commonly occurring example would be suicide bombers.
Of course, this all leads to the difference between how far a Christian will go vs. other religion(s).
Which leads to an observation -
Christians are far less likely, cant think of even one occurrence, to sacrifice themselves to kill "them". I guess that's where the suicide is a sin rule comes in.
What you do hear about often enough is killing someone else as in not taking their kid to a doctor etc.
Extreme cases yes but examples of your point in red none the less.

 

[Spotlite]

As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce. My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good. You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you. There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue. I hope we can identify it.

I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this. It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.

This is as straight forward as I can make it. I don't think I can do a better job than this. The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings. I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy. There are other examples I gave that included politics and science. Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?

I guess I was under the impression that there was an actual source to this rather than your perception. I can’t argue against your perception, but it’s still just your perception.

And to be honest, I once thought ALL Muslims were on a suicide mission.

 

[Spotlite]

Healthier?
Hey, Id be all in agreement if the believers of one God never got sick or came down with debilitating diseases or were born with defects.
But it just isnt so.
Studies show owning a dog makes you healthy too. If you own a dog and believe in God....and watch your weight, ate healthy, and do things in moderation and take your Dog for walks 3 or4 times a day....I dont doubt you are healthier.
If you are 4'10" 268lb, pall mall filterless smoker, live on Fast Food and hard liquor and never leave the couch and also have 14 dogs in the house that NEVER go outside to do their business....well you better believe in a God.

2nd part:
Depends on what god is believed in and where and of your in the majority or minority.

I’m sure there are many more, and probably as many that disagree. Why would believers not get sick? Doesn’t it rain on just and unust alike?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201712/religion-and-mental-health-what-is-the-link?amp

 

[Spotlite]

Because that is what religious people claim all the time.
They have something special. Its spiritual. You other people can't feel it.
Religious are the chosen, the elect, the special. All religions think they are more "better" then the next despite them all having the same problems and same good fortunes, and same morals, and same sinister deeds as the non religious.

I don’t put a lot of stock in claims. The fruit will bear itself. That’s for a believer and a non believer.

Not sure about the better part either. I guess my group is different. The minute we think we are better than others is the minute we’ve lost sight of our mission.

 

[Spotlite]

A more commonly occurring example would be suicide bombers.
Of course, this all leads to the difference between how far a Christian will go vs. other religion(s).
Which leads to an observation -
Christians are far less likely, cant think of even one occurrence, to sacrifice themselves to kill "them". I guess that's where the suicide is a sin rule comes in.
What you do hear about often enough is killing someone else as in not taking their kid to a doctor etc.
Extreme cases yes but examples of your point in red none the less.

With emphasis on extreme.

 

[WaltL1]

With emphasis on extreme.

1 church in 1 county in 1 state -

According to coroners’ reports, in Canyon County alone just in the past decade at least 10 children in the Followers of Christ church have died. These include 15-year-old Arrian Granden, who died in 2012 after contracting food poisoning. She vomited so much that her esophagus ruptured. Untreated, she bled to death.
The other deaths are mostly infants who died during at-home births or soon after from treatable complications, simple infections or pneumonia.

Yes, 1 particular denomination but "extreme" might be being generous.

EDIT -

Former Christian Scientist Rita Swan, executive director of the nonprofit Children's Health Care Is A Legal Duty, estimates that since the 1980s 300 children have died of "religion-based medical neglect" in the United States.

Maybe "extreme" is being really generous.....

 

[Spotlite]

1 church in 1 county in 1 state -

Yes, 1 particular denomination but "extreme" might be being generous.

EDIT -

Maybe "extreme" is being really generous.....

I get what you're saying, I just realize that there are some things done in the name of religion that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I would hope others could do the same.

I’m sure that this doesn’t represent Atheism - “Alfred Kinsey was an infamous American biologist and professor of entomology and zoology, who made groundbreaking research on human sexuality. Undoubtedly, he helped to progress social values – but, nevertheless, he took sadistic pleasure out of his research, and did some very weird stuff, including exploiting children for sex. Moreover, much of his research was fraud”

I don’t believe that religion nor atheism has a net negative effect on society or an individual, I believe the individual’s self motivation / justification is the animal.

 

[WaltL1]

I get what you're saying, I just realize that there are some things done in the name of religion that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I would hope others could do the same.

I’m sure that this doesn’t represent Atheism - “Alfred Kinsey was an infamous American biologist and professor of entomology and zoology, who made groundbreaking research on human sexuality. Undoubtedly, he helped to progress social values – but, nevertheless, he took sadistic pleasure out of his research, and did some very weird stuff, including exploiting children for sex. Moreover, much of his research was fraud”

I don’t believe that religion nor atheism has a net negative effect on society or an individual, I believe the individual’s self motivation / justification is the animal.

In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.

 

[Israel]

"How effective....?" better and better each day as secularism and reason get more refined and widespread and replace religious dogmatism .

OK. Stand by that if you care to. Man is becoming more reasonable.

 

[Spotlite]

In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.

I think we agree on this more than it appears.

As my fat Aunt once said, “son you don’t understand the power of a chocolate cake”.

 

[Israel]

In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.

I'd recommend "Conspiracy" with Kenneth Branagh, Stanley Tucci, and Colin Firth if you watch movies at all. It's about the "bringing into the tent" of the various arms of the Nazi government and administrative ministries in the purpose of the final solution. (Which was already underway...but politics demanded a "willing" acquiescence for both political expediency and full implementation.)

I believe "the good Lord" gets mentioned more than once, but I do have the clear memory of Gen. Reynhard Heydrich (the butcher of Prague) mouthing the words. The movie itself is rife with irony, with that not necessarily being its most singularly rich display.

Nevertheless I believe one would have to be "obtuse" (hey, do you remember how that description set off the warden in "Shawshank"?) to deny a plainer stating of their truest allegiance is to the one who is described as having word "above the law"...Adolf Hitler.

But being use (too use?) to dealing with the obtuse (read stupid, ignorant, woefully shortsighted) in my own short time upon this marble (do I exempt myself?) I have learned men much easier submit to being accused, in almost every case, of being malevolent than naive or ignorant. Do I think men easier bear being thought mean spirited (or to the extreme "evil")...than willingly suffer having their intelligence impugned? Yeah, pretty much so. (here's a simple experiment: Tell a man "he shouldn't be so evil" and watch for reaction. Now, tell him "he shouldn't be so stupid" and do the same)

So, (if only) to me an obtuse one would take occasion, by mention of "the good Lord", to find an easy equation "Nazi's also= examples of Christians". Or vice versa if found to argument's expediency. (Or bring up Kruschev's ability to recite the whole of the gospel of John, verbatim.) Now, I don't deny they did indeed have a religion that "moved them", but I'll leave that to the emerging obtuse for consideration. But it will take the remarkably obtuse to not discover in such, their own is likewise exposed. "Gee...why do other men do as they do? While I know exactly why I am what I am and do what I do?" Such is not yet, emerging from obtuse city. Obtusity?

In the "Nazi" tale is also found another story "The Hiding Place". I have little doubt that somewhere in all of Casper ten Boom's recitations over his own lifetime, there no less appeared a reference to "the good Lord". If you think I will here, or am, seeking to make a proof of "who" is the true Christian...don't be obtuse. That's left to each to determine who, and what, to him speaks truly. Honestly. And likewise if there be any ever, capable of all truth. If he thinks himself...it...to be honest, I don't know whether my proper response is "don't be so evil" or "don't be so stupid".

Only the obtuse will be stung. But, who knows, (I sure don't) whether thinking my response has any place of requirement at all...for I may be of all, most obtuse, evil, and stupid.

 

[Spotlite]

Spotlite,

Here's another example of how religion seems to lead reasonable, rational people away from to what a Humanist, secularist would see as the obvious humane, merciful action.

http://forum.gon.com/threads/scientist-to-be-punished-for-gene-editing.935884/page-2#post-11576162

That’s actually a good discussion with editing of genes thread.

Regardless of what nature is, let it take it’s course, for obvious reasons. One eluded to Hitler and his style. I took it as potential abuse of gene editing.

With the creation folks, are you interfering with God’s plan? If you’re an evolution believer, are you interfering with natural process of adapting to survive? Why would you interfere with either if you really believe that either occurs?

Your mom”s conclusion is a perfect example of how skeptical any reasonable, rational person should view this.

I’m skeptical but I wouldn’t block it if it helped prevent.

I would question those that would block it in the name of either creation or evolution; if you’re concerned about interfering with a natural process, why are you taking your child to the doctor?

 

[ambush80]

I guess I was under the impression that there was an actual source to this rather than your perception. I can’t argue against your perception, but it’s still just your perception.

And to be honest, I once thought ALL Muslims were on a suicide mission.

Do you want statistics? Studies? Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?

 

[Spotlite]

Do you want statistics? Studies? Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?

It’d be interesting just to know if you realize the difference between a person flying a plane into a building for Allah and those that condemn it in the name of Allah.

I think your issue is if a person says they’re a believer, you’re automatically sold at face value that they represent all believers.

You’d make a great Juror for those chaining they’re innocent.

 

[Spotlite]

Do you want statistics? Studies? Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?

Do you think that Alfred Kinsey is a great representation of Atheism, or just himself?

 

[ambush80]

Do you think that Alfred Kinsey is a great representation of Atheism, or just himself?

First of all Atheism isn't a doctrine. It doesn't instruct anything. It only says that a person doesn't believe in God. It doesn't tell them how they should live. It doesn't tell them that they should be rational or good. But religions do exactly that. They instruct you on HOW TO LIVE and believers live as they think the doctrine instructs them to.

 

[ambush80]

It’d be interesting just to know if you realize the difference between a person flying a plane into a building for Allah and those that condemn it in the name of Allah.

I think your issue is if a person says they’re a believer, you’re automatically sold at face value that they represent all believers.

You’d make a great Juror for those chaining they’re innocent.

I can only take what they tell me at face value. If they say that they're a believer I listen.

I know that believers are all over the spectrum between Fundamentalist and Secular. Part of my assertion was that as they move away from Fundamentalist and towards Secular that they become better people.