Georgias deer herd by the numbers and by those who know

[C.Killmaster]

I also believe to that more ideas should be considered from the hunting public. We as corporate America have a tendency to think our own ideas and knowledge is superior to everyone else's. Anyway..., it is what it is...., a debate!

Read page 8 in the current hunting regulations under the Major Changes in hunting regulations and laws. All 11 items in that list were changed based on public input. Georgia regulations are influenced by public input much more heavily than most states.

 

[JB0704]

If we can't trust our fellow hunters, as you suggest, why would lowering the limit help anyway?

Enforcement. Other states do it, and it works somewhat.

 

[JB0704]

Anybody who kills fifteen deer a year now would still kill fifteen deer a year if the limit was two.

Yea, but maybe the folks who shoot every deer they see because it's legal, and the mindset is that there are too many deer, could be minimized a bit. I'd prefer that to this honor system which encourages over harvest.

 

[Big Eights]

Yea, but maybe the folks who shoot every deer they see because it's legal, and the mindset is that there are too many deer, could be minimized a bit. I'd prefer that to this honor system which encourages over harvest.

xx2

 

[F.A.R.R.]

Do you have another alternative for estimating a statewide population of deer? Prior to computer population modeling there was no way to estimate a statewide population.

The model does, and always has, account for predation on fawns. It requires the input of fawn recruitment rates which are determined in the field. It also includes a 20% adult mortality rate for deaths other than hunting.

Recruitment rates in Georgia are not as low as the Savannah River Site (SRS) that you alluded to, Georgia=0.55, SRS=0.25. In fact, our lowest recruitment rates by region are in the Blue Ridge Mountains which is around 0.35. Notice the considerably fewer doe days in that region? There very well could be a few isolated areas with recruitment similar to SRS, but not on a regional area. Additionally, there have been several years of field research in Georgia showing recruitment rates between 0.40 and 0.60.

Charlie this may sound stupid but when you say a recruitment rate between .40 and .60 is that each doe accounts for an average of between .4 and .6 fawns per year ?

Also have always been curious on what the predation rate on fawns is-I guess in laymans terms what percentage of fawns get ate by a wild critter?

Thanks.

 

[C.Killmaster]

Charlie this may sound stupid but when you say a recruitment rate between .40 and .60 is that each doe accounts for an average of between .4 and .6 fawns per year ?

Also have always been curious on what the predation rate on fawns is-I guess in laymans terms what percentage of fawns get ate by a wild critter?

Thanks.

That's correct, 0.4 to 0.6 fawns per doe are "recruited" into the population. The definition of recruited is surviving to hunting season; thus all death loss of fawns between birth and hunting season are accounted for in recruitment rates (when nearly all coyote predation occurs). It's impossible to say exactly what percentage of deaths are attributed to coyotes, bobcats, dogs, abandonment, or disease; but current research and anecdotal evidence shows that coyotes have a heavy hand. That is one of the targets with our current research project on deer and coyotes. Unlike other predator removal projects, we selectively removed coyotes but let bobcats go. That should at least cut bobcats out of the equation and assess the true impact of coyotes on our study sites.

For perspective, we averaged recruitment rates between 0.80 and 0.95 in the 1980's and 1990's. That may seem low as well, but you have to remember that ~75% of does will not have any fawns in their first year.

 

[Jeff Phillips]

I am trying not to pick on you Charlie, promise...

Our doe harvest has gone up 40% (222K in 00-01 and 308K in 10-11).

Our recruitment has declined 45% based on your numbers above.

We have exceeded the herd reduction goals set for the 10 year plan.

How can WRD continue to support a 12 doe limit and all season E/S hunting?

 

[F.A.R.R.]

That's correct, 0.4 to 0.6 fawns per doe are "recruited" into the population. The definition of recruited is surviving to hunting season; thus all death loss of fawns between birth and hunting season are accounted for in recruitment rates (when nearly all coyote predation occurs). It's impossible to say exactly what percentage of deaths are attributed to coyotes, bobcats, dogs, abandonment, or disease; but current research and anecdotal evidence shows that coyotes have a heavy hand. That is one of the targets with our current research project on deer and coyotes. Unlike other predator removal projects, we selectively removed coyotes but let bobcats go. That should at least cut bobcats out of the equation and assess the true impact of coyotes on our study sites.

For perspective, we averaged recruitment rates between 0.80 and 0.95 in the 1980's and 1990's. That may seem low as well, but you have to remember that ~75% of does will not have any fawns in their first year.

Thank you-this is interesting data. The coyote study is also interesting-I have seen several articles written about the study and also some stuff written-in field and stream I believe about the coyotes eating a good many of fawns.

Based on the reasearch what is believed to be the cause (or combinations of causes) for a drop in recruitment since the 80's and 90's?

Related to the topic I was looking at the most current on-line version of our hunting regs. I read the article which explained how the current deer limits are set up to allow for hunters to self regulate the harvest in the area they hunt. I also read where it talks about how basic harvest rates can effect local deer populations. I thought it was well written and does a good job of explaining how we as hunters need to be looking at things.

I think the problem/issues that get discussed on this forum are with trying to get everyones buy in. Education seems as though it would be important-some people just may not understand exactly how their chosen harvest may effect a local population-these are the ones where education would benefit-its good to know the DNR offers to work with landowners/groups of landowners/hunters in working out a program based on their objectives. On the other side of this some people just are not conservation minded and don't care how their harvest decisions effect the local heard-or neighboring hunting properties objectives-don't know if much can be done to change that.

 

[kevincox]

I am trying not to pick on you Charlie, promise...

Our doe harvest has gone up 40% (222K in 00-01 and 308K in 10-11).

Our recruitment has declined 45% based on your numbers above.

We have exceeded the herd reduction goals set for the 10 year
How can WRD continue to support a 12 doe limit and all season E/S hunting?

Valid point for sure

 

[JBowers]

Is there any plan to adjust the herd management strategy from the state's perspective? Or, is the intent to leave everything as is even though the herd has been reduced below the target numbers under the current regs?

Charlie provided a link to the current deer plan in place. A new deer plan will be developed to replace this one upon its expiration. The process for how that deer plan was developed is explained in the plan. The effort to develop a new plan is likely to follow a similar process with a comparable public participation and input process. While a timeline for development of that process has not yet been developed, that effort may begin later this year or early in 2013.

 

[ridgestalker]

There are a lot more poachers an people taking over the limit an shooting a bunch of deer cause they can then folks would like to believe. Because its been left up to hunters to regulate harvest with 12 tags an open season on does it has taking its toll in areas i have hunted all my life.Dnr does a good job on a lot of things in my opinion but setting limits an doe days statewide instead of by region or zone breakdowns is not one of them. They can put up all the numbers they want an add an subtract this or that but i have seen with my own eyes an time in the woods how there plan is working out.It has dropped the numbers in areas in the state pretty good an dont see how the population will ever stabilize or increase in areas if left the way it is IMO.

 

[JBowers]

I am trying not to pick on you Charlie, promise...

Our doe harvest has gone up 40% (222K in 00-01 and 308K in 10-11).

Our recruitment has declined 45% based on your numbers above.

We have exceeded the herd reduction goals set for the 10 year plan.

How can WRD continue to support a 12 doe limit and all season E/S hunting?

Jeff, WRD is following the current deer plan in place and most all recommendations have been met (some of them are annually revisited). See my earlier post concerning the effort that will be initiated to revise/update/develop a new plan. I know you were engaged in the processes that led to the development of that plan and I expect you will also be engaged with the new effort begins.

 

[BowanaLee]

I've been in the woods almost every day during deer season for the last 45 years. (lately in Henry, Spalding and DeKalb) I believe a lot of this is because your not seeing deer every time you hunt. I haven't noticed a big decline any where I hunt and don't know a single person that limits out. I think the deer have adapted to 4 wheelers and human traffic. (hunting pressure) If I waited until after the rut to take a few doe, I wouldn't get one. I have averaged 5 bow deer for years. Could've taken many more but few after the rut. I have property's where I'm the only hunter but they still catch on quick. Even though my 4 wheeler stays in my garage, theres no in season scouting and I sneak in and out. The tracks are still there but they ain't moving until after dark. WRD knows their job.

 

[Throwback]

bowanna in the last 4 or 5 years i have noticed a huge uptick in the amount of nocturnal movement of deer during deer season.


T

 

[Jeff Phillips]

The tracks are still there but they ain't moving until after dark. WRD knows their job.

I am truly happy that you still have a good herd.

Our tracks are WAY down, even when the area has no pressure.

 

[JB0704]

Charlie provided a link to the current deer plan in place. A new deer plan will be developed to replace this one upon its expiration. The process for how that deer plan was developed is explained in the plan. The effort to develop a new plan is likely to follow a similar process with a comparable public participation and input process. While a timeline for development of that process has not yet been developed, that effort may begin later this year or early in 2013.

You may have also noticed that they have an explanation out, and it has been articulated in this thread, that they are leaving the responsibility to hunters to decide how to manage. That seems to be the plan, kind-of like saying "y'all have at it."

Even the WRD admits there are fewer deer. In fact, 1/3 fewer deer than before. The fawn recruitment rate is down. Check their numbers. I think those of us who claim the population is down significantly have the facts on our side.

What absolutely puzzles me is the insistence that the practices that caused the reduction will somehow stop causing a reduction, and that people will now change because we wrote a nice letter to them in the regulations.

 

[JB0704]

I am truly happy that you still have a good herd.

Our tracks are WAY down, even when the area has no pressure.

It seems folks who have a lot of deer think those of us who don't are bad hunters. I practice pretty much what he described, no 4-wheelers, no unnecessary scouting during season, only walk where I have to, leave as little scent as possible, get in and out quietly, etc. I have hunted on smaller leases my whole life, so the "big-club" mentality just doesn't apply. In my woods, there are not drunks riding around on 4 wheelers and stomping around doing mid-day scouts. There are just fewer deer (and the WRD's numbers verify that).

Also, I drive through west Cobb every morning on the way to work. Any metro county with low hunting pressure is going to have a decent population. As people expand, the deer will get crowded into various woodlots and appear to be more populated than they would be if there were more habitat. I see these deer every morning. But that is not applicable to the locations I hunt.

 

[Madsnooker]

I have hunted Dooly county for 14 years now. We see many more deer now than we ever did when we started, which I believe was the same year the qdm regs started. We see more tracks, more rubs, more heavily used deer tracks and naturaly more deer per sit.

Its really not hard to know if you have many deer or not.

Seeing deer or not from your stand, or if they are nocturnal or not, is irrelevant. deer leave sign. If you don't see much sign during the year and you don't see many deer from the stand, than your deer pop is very low. It really is that simple.

Obviously, that is the case with many hunters in certian areas of the state. We do not have that problem in Dooly even with the current regs. It seems any hunter I run into in Dooly, manage their herds by the "daylight" eye test (what they see from the stand AS WELL AS what they see as far as tracks, etc.) and I have NEVER run into a hunter that "tags out". Maybe that is why we have great hunting in Dooly? I'm sure there may be a couple that do but its surely not near enough to have any real impact on deer numbers in Dooly county.

I honestly don't ever recall discussing hunting regulations with any other hunter where we hunt in all the years I have hunted there. It simply has no bearing on how we, or any hunters we know or run into, hunt in our area. This is just my opinion, but if your are hunting an area of the state that the deer population is truely down "because" of the current regs, than I don't think lowering them will matter. Those that shoot 12 deer along with poaching will continue in those areas. The percentage of hunters that went from shooting only 2-4 deer per year up to 12, becuase the new regs said they could, is extremely low. In areas where that is not true, probably have bigger issues than the regs. That is my personal opinion obviously.

 

[C.Killmaster]

You may have also noticed that they have an explanation out, and it has been articulated in this thread, that they are leaving the responsibility to hunters to decide how to manage. That seems to be the plan, kind-of like saying "y'all have at it."

Even the WRD admits there are fewer deer. In fact, 1/3 fewer deer than before. The fawn recruitment rate is down. Check their numbers. I think those of us who claim the population is down significantly have the facts on our side.

What absolutely puzzles me is the insistence that the practices that caused the reduction will somehow stop causing a reduction, and that people will now change because we wrote a nice letter to them in the regulations.

I think JBowers is familiar with the numbers. The reason WRD "admits" that the deer population is lower is that the population is lower and it was intentional to reduce it. In fact, public input drove the recommendation to decrease the population in certain parts of the state per the deer management plan.

 

[JB0704]

I think JBowers is familiar with the numbers. The reason WRD "admits" that the deer population is lower is that the population is lower and it was intentional to reduce it. In fact, public input drove the recommendation to decrease the population in certain parts of the state per the deer management plan.

Good to know he knows the numbers. Now that we are all in agreement that there are a lot fewer deer, could you you or Jbowers help me understand why the belief is that a process which worked to reduce the deer herd will stop working without a change in the process?

You mention public input a lot. I have noticed on this forum there is a lot of input either way. How is the input measured, and who decides which public input is the accurate input?