I don't care who the new Pope is

[Artfuldodger]

I was kinda getting that vibe too....but I have tried hard to keep it from getting that way. Even though our belief's are different, I think we can still be respectful in this thread.



I agree with the first part...and disagree with the last. God's Word will never change. He will always have a Church. No matter how many or how few, there will always be people striving to know God's Will and following His Word.

I heard an interesting quote on the radio from a non-Christian today...and I agree with it.

"The Church (any church) should not change for the people, the people should change for the Church."

And that is true. If you don't like the belief held by the church/Bible, change the way you believe or realize that you'll be condemned by the Bible. Don't think that you as a finite person can change the Word of God.

I would agree unless the Church has already succumbed to the followers. The Church should stay true to their Creed. The members can look for another Church if they don't feel comfortable with the Churches creed. I would not expect any Church to change their Creed to have someone like me as a member.
But the sad thing is they do change and they have changed. How many times has the Catholic Church changed their beliefs on birth control, etc.
Why did the Protestants protest and leave the Catholic Church? That was really a change. Mormans changed their beliefs on black members. JW's change their beliefs more than I do. If I change my beliefs I can look elsewhere, churches shouldn't.
Even Baptists, Methodists, & Holiness Churches change. I would have never thought I'd have seen the day women wore pants to Church. Crocs will probably be allowed soon.

 

[Mako22]

He is a Jesuit and I always respected Jesuits. Very smart and they will force you to THINK.

Jesuit = spy

 

[rjcruiser]

Why did the Protestants protest and leave the Catholic Church? That was really a change.

Protestants left the RCC because of the Reformation. Reformation happened because they thought the RCC had strayed from the truth taught in scripture. (No...not trying to get into a discussion about the Reformation here....don't want to go there.)

Was that change? or like hitting the "reset" button on your phone to get back to the factory settings?

Even Baptists, Methodists, & Holiness Churches change. I would have never thought I'd have seen the day women wore pants to Church. Crocs will probably be allowed soon.

Pants/Crocs...I don't think I'd classify that as change. I'm talking both Doctrine and spiritual teachings. But I've seen change in doctrinal positions from many denominations...which are always (well...I think always) a straying from the truth (ie women pastors, non-literal 6 day creation, not subscribing to the inerrancy of scripture, not subscribing to the Doctrine of the Trinity )

 

[Artfuldodger]

When we talk about following the leadership of the Pope i'm reminded how we follow the direction of the local preacher of our local Churches. Example: Local preacher says not to go to stores and restaurants on Sunday, congregation obliges. New preacher comes in and he is OK with going to stores on Sunday. So in a since we do follow guidance from who is in a leadership position.

 

[dawg2]

Jesuit = spy

Spy for who? You talking about the 1500's? LOL

 

[rjcruiser]

When we talk about following the leadership of the Pope i'm reminded how we follow the direction of the local preacher of our local Churches. Example: Local preacher says not to go to stores and restaurants on Sunday, congregation obliges. New preacher comes in and he is OK with going to stores on Sunday. So in a since we do follow guidance from who is in a leadership position.

I think the difference between the RCC and their view of the Pope and the FBC and their view of the Pastor is that the RCC holds the Pope's teachings to be infallible.


Edit to add: Mods...Dawg2...if you feel this thread or my posts are getting too close to the fine line of stepping on the ant bed...please delete it. My intent is not to stir up the the nest that has been stirred up plenty in the past.

 

[gordon 2]

When we talk about following the leadership of the Pope i'm reminded how we follow the direction of the local preacher of our local Churches. Example: Local preacher says not to go to stores and restaurants on Sunday, congregation obliges. New preacher comes in and he is OK with going to stores on Sunday. So in a since we do follow guidance from who is in a leadership position.

Art you like to make straw men. No one follows the leadership of the Pope, but all can differ to the office if we need to. All preachers are at least one card short of a full deck... (Hi, Ronnie T. LOL) so we need faith. What I'm understanding here is a question" How do we know to walk righteously?" And the answer is by faith.

The office of the Papacy brings to bare all the church as the body of Christ to his office. That office is the last word on various issues... The pope, the man is just that a preacher, and at least one spiritual card short of a full deck. But his office is the last word. The talk and the walk stops there.

In a social setting a four star general can tell a buck private most anything, and the private can tell the general to take a flying flip and go back to his rat nest, bla, bla, bla,,,. But from and in an official setting...in the execution of his duties the General can say the same thing... and the private soldier better take heed-- or else!!!!!!!

Sometimes leadership is not what we think it is. The general like the Pope in his official capacity is drawing on the history, and "the big picture"... and the pastor and the priest is more like the corporal or the sarge ( often airborne and parachuted behind lines alone) or his few helpers coming upon 250 people like you Art and like me cowering in our spiritual bunkers....

Now I hope you see that leadership is for the medicines we need. Sometimes our family doctor has to refer to specialists. The office of the Papacy for catholics and many others is just that. But we don't hang on every word a pope sings... they(popes) are not our politics or our presidents--there is finer cloth to touch in our Lord, and even if we only have the tread of a hem. Faith is where it's at.

(PS, some mornings I operate with less than half a deck. But inspite of this the Lord always provides. Faith is the salve of all my pains. LOL) Also, I noticed I type peachers for preachers lately. Now is that a freudian typo?

 

[bigdawg25]

I think the difference between the RCC and their view of the Pope and the FBC and their view of the Pastor is that the RCC holds the Pope's teachings to be infallible.


Edit to add: Mods...Dawg2...if you feel this thread or my posts are getting too close to the fine line of stepping on the ant bed...please delete it. My intent is not to stir up the the nest that has been stirred up plenty in the past.

Rjcruiser: papal infallibility is something around which folks have a lot of questions about; and I am glad you asked it. This is a relatively new thing in RCC and it wasnt even defined until 1870s. Not everything a pope says or does has infallibility; He chooses to invoke papal infallibility extremely rarely, and on the occasions he did, those things were already pretty well known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_infallible_declarations

 

[rjcruiser]

Rjcruiser: papal infallibility is something around which folks have a lot of questions about; and I am glad you asked it. This is a relatively new thing in RCC and it wasnt even defined until 1870s. Not everything a pope says or does has infallibility; He chooses to invoke papal infallibility extremely rarely, and on the occasions he did, those things were already pretty well known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_infallible_declarations

Right...I know...and that is why I said in the quote above that it is the Pope's teachings (and I guess I should've only said some) that are infallible...not the man himself. But as a Protestant, there was only one human that was infallible...and that was Jesus Christ. The Word of God is also infallible and inerrant....so yes, other men were able to teach/transcribe infallible Words of God. That being said, I believe that the canon is closed....therefore, there is no more that can come from anyone (including the Pope) that is infallible or inerrant.

Also, there are writings and support that would infer Papal infallibility from before the time it was more defined in 1870. Now...I understand...that just because someone said something/wrote something, it doesn't make it the belief of the RCC....but that is one of the reasons that many (including the reformers) distance themselves from the RCC.

 

[Madman]

My question is, if God never changes(except his mind), why do churches?

Artful,

I can only speak to what I saw in the Episcopal Church, liberal professors teaching in Liberal seminaries turning out liberal priests, sheparding Biblically ignorant sheep.

But what we have to remember is all of that is just a symptom of the problem. I believe the problem is Biblical, ignorance. How many people do you know that are in one or more "grounded" bible studies? How many men do you know understand hermeneutics and systematic theology?
How many men do you know spend time daily on their knees asking God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to reveal the Truth to them?

Read Chronicles and Samuel, about King David and how the Israelites had forgotten how to handle and transport the Ark of the Covenant, it got men killed, and we think we are better equipped to handle His Word when we have stayed away from His teachings for so long.

As Don Francisco wrote, we are "running helter-skelter with our fingers in our ears."

I believe in our pursuit of religion we lose God.

We need to be praying for Christ's bride, the Church, all denominations, we should have been praying in our own churches and during our prayer time that God would reveal who the Pope should be.

We should be praying as Christ did "that we would be of one mind as he and the Father are."

 

[gordon 2]

Right...I know...and that is why I said in the quote above that it is the Pope's teachings (and I guess I should've only said some) that are infallible...not the man himself. But as a Protestant, there was only one human that was infallible...and that was Jesus Christ. The Word of God is also infallible and inerrant....so yes, other men were able to teach/transcribe infallible Words of God. That being said, I believe that the canon is closed....therefore, there is no more that can come from anyone (including the Pope) that is infallible or inerrant.

Also, there are writings and support that would infer Papal infallibility from before the time it was more defined in 1870. Now...I understand...that just because someone said something/wrote something, it doesn't make it the belief of the RCC....but that is one of the reasons that many (including the reformers) distance themselves from the RCC.

Many reformers in the past and their followers to this day build straw men and called it the Pope, or the RCC and proceeded to burn it. Many catholics make out protestants to be strawmen and burn them also, inspite of Papal authority directed especially to catholics that all christians, no matter what denomination, can go to heaven or can be saved. Human beings, the part of it which they have created for themselves, are a piece of work... when you think of it...

I understand papal infalability as arbitration in serving the needs of the faithful in regard to giving an adaquate or good witness to what they believe and why and a prompting to do, to act as people grafted to the tree of life.

The papacy serves the faithful. It is not a lordship. The papacy will find from midrash and human history, scripture, from the Gospel, church history, church fathers, church experience, and prayer what is in Christ or not... regards simple and complex issues that are meant to be helpful to all christians in their walk of faith.

Canon is there. But when we walk in faith like we go hunting do we go with our mind focused on hunting and or our minds on pleasing the regulation book of the game wardens and their interpretations? ( We'll never please the game wardens, the minute we get out of our cars or trucks...in the woods during hunting season...we are to the mercy of the law...) besides we can argue with the game wardens on rules and regulations till we get blue in the face... and we'll never be ahead....and to our original purpose. We'll argue over wording and intent, over its, fors and to and wherebys and that the word all don't mean all all the time, that this canon was meant for that people at that time, and not ours, that bla, bla, bla.... in the meantime we're not hunting...and to its wholesomeness.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Art you like to make straw men. No one follows the leadership of the Pope, but all can differ to the office if we need to. All preachers are at least one card short of a full deck... (Hi, Ronnie T. LOL) so we need faith. What I'm understanding here is a question" How do we know to walk righteously?" And the answer is by faith.

The office of the Papacy brings to bare all the church as the body of Christ to his office. That office is the last word on various issues... The pope, the man is just that a preacher, and at least one spiritual card short of a full deck. But his office is the last word. The talk and the walk stops there.

In a social setting a four star general can tell a buck private most anything, and the private can tell the general to take a flying flip and go back to his rat nest, bla, bla, bla,,,. But from and in an official setting...in the execution of his duties the General can say the same thing... and the private soldier better take heed-- or else!!!!!!!

Sometimes leadership is not what we think it is. The general like the Pope in his official capacity is drawing on the history, and "the big picture"... and the pastor and the priest is more like the corporal or the sarge ( often airborne and parachuted behind lines alone) or his few helpers coming upon 250 people like you Art and like me cowering in our spiritual bunkers....

Now I hope you see that leadership is for the medicines we need. Sometimes our family doctor has to refer to specialists. The office of the Papacy for catholics and many others is just that. But we don't hang on every word a pope sings... they(popes) are not our politics or our presidents--there is finer cloth to touch in our Lord, and even if we only have the tread of a hem. Faith is where it's at.

(PS, some mornings I operate with less than half a deck. But inspite of this the Lord always provides. Faith is the salve of all my pains. LOL) Also, I noticed I type peachers for preachers lately. Now is that a freudian typo?

My only argument is to show that in a lot of ways Protestants are no different from Catholics in having and following leadership. Most local Churches are part of a bigger organization. They vote on things. They change things. The argument in not on whether the changes are good or bad. Change is inevitable. Whether we as Christians like it or not it will happen. I predict that in the future gays will have more rights and will be more socially aceptable. I've seen the same thing happen with equal rights and women's rights. I'm not trying to show that it is right or wrong, just how it is.
I can see changes in my lifetime on how Christians have changed as to what is acceptable or not.
I'm trying to show unity not division between the two Churches and to show the importance of who the Pope is even if you aren't Catholic. I have no way of knowing who is channeling the Holy Spirit or who is just being guided by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe we are just guided by the Holy Spirit including preachers, me, and the Pope.

 

[StriperAddict]

I have no way of knowing who is channeling the Holy Spirit or who is just being guided by the Holy Spirit.

If you belong to Christ then it's your privelage to know...

I'm not reading where he said he based his faith on the Pope.
Where do we draw the line as to who is channeling the Holy Spirit, guided by the Holy Spirit, or is using their own free will? Apostiles, the Pope, Paul, Protestant Preachers, every born again Christian, and most importantly the "Bible writers" and all of the various interpreters?
I'm talking about following and getting guidance from ordained men of the cloth. I'm not talking about worshipping a man.

Both the above come as a matter of trust, but I'd say it is essential for the one who has called on the Lord to know Him and His word intimately. In this way you can rest assured you won't stumble by false teachings or other so called "gospels".

Brother, I pray for you and many to know that hidden Person at work in your life, through your life. There lies the greatest gift of all... that we have been made a New Creation in Christ because of the cross, and live unto Him with all joy by faith. I've said it many times: it's His work within that will bring you to completion, as your spirit man is already complete. This is the work of Him that hammers our pride and selfishness into the dust, not something taught by man's wisdom, or by religious rules/laws. What the law (or man) cannot do, God did. It's all a free mercy gift by the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

I hesitate to comment further about any one man or leader in the faith. I don't hold any to a greater stature than is their gift(s) bestowed on them by heavenly Providence. But as to their doctrine, I'll let the scriptures speak:

Titus 2:10
not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

and
2 Timothy 4:2-4

<SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>preach <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>the word; be ready in season and out of season; <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>patience and instruction.

<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>For <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the time will come when they will not endure <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>and <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>will turn away their ears from the truth and <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>will turn aside to myths.



And the promise...
John 8:31-32


<SUP class=versenum>31 </SUP>So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “<SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>If
you continue in My word, then you are truly <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>disciples of Mine;
<SUP class=versenum>32 </SUP>and <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>you will know the truth, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the truth will make you free.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

come as a matter of trust, but I'd say it is essential for the one who has called on the Lord to know Him and His word intimately. In this way you can rest assured you won't stumble by false teachings or other so called "gospels".

Brother, I pray for you and many to know that hidden Person at work in your life, through your life. There lies the greatest gift of all... that we have been made a New Creation in Christ because of the cross, and live unto Him with all joy by faith. I've said it many times: it's His work within that will bring you to completion, as your spirit man is already complete. This is the work of Him that hammers our pride and selfishness into the dust, not something taught by man's wisdom, or by religious rules/laws. What the law (or man) cannot do, God did. It's all a free mercy gift by the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

I hesitate to comment further about any one man or leader in the faith. I don't hold any to a greater stature than is their gift(s) bestowed on them by heavenly Providence. But as to their doctrine, I'll let the scriptures speak:

Titus 2:10
not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

You made some very good points. I have put way too much faith in man including elders instead of following the Holy Spirit. Since I can easily be lead astray, I need a daily renewal of the Holy Spirit.
That being said at some point in our Christian journey, we have to trust Church elders. Paul was teaching Titus how to be an elder. Even though Titus was a Christian who had the Holy Spirit, he still had to learn to be a good leader. It takes a little bit of himself and a whole lot of the Holy Spirit.

Please explain your reference to Titus 2:10 as it is on how Christian slaves should act. Are you comparing it to us being slaves of God?
In Titus 2 Paul is teaching Titus how the people of Crete should live, old & young men & women, and the Christian slaves. It's a good verse and we can relate to it although it's not advice specifically written for an elder to follow.

 

[gordon 2]

My only argument is to show that in a lot of ways Protestants are no different from Catholics in having and following leadership. Most local Churches are part of a bigger organization. They vote on things. They change things. The argument in not on whether the changes are good or bad. Change is inevitable. Whether we as Christians like it or not it will happen. I predict that in the future gays will have more rights and will be more socially aceptable. I've seen the same thing happen with equal rights and women's rights. I'm not trying to show that it is right or wrong, just how it is.
I can see changes in my lifetime on how Christians have changed as to what is acceptable or not.
I'm trying to show unity not division between the two Churches and to show the importance of who the Pope is even if you aren't Catholic. I have no way of knowing who is channeling the Holy Spirit or who is just being guided by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe we are just guided by the Holy Spirit including preachers, me, and the Pope.

...do you remember when Isreal our brother... was praying and asking all to pray for the life of his grand-dauther( I think this is who she is.)? And do you remember that a few weeks after his asking for prayers and pleading in prayer that God be with her doctors, he found out that the God had been all along with his grand-dauther's hospital, its leaders, social workers, doctors, nurses, maids, janitors...etc...

For baptism love is everywhere--it is a wise water our baptism. It is given to and by many hands. Praise God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

As StriperAddict said: We receive and manifest various gifts of ministry and service within the congregation, as the Holy Spirit wills and gives. I believe the sanctifying work of the Spirit is a daily exercise. We receive the Holy Spirit upon baptism. It's up to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit to grant gifts as he sees fit.
God was with all of those hospital people but we should still pray for help & guidance.
Still I personally have know way of knowing what gifts the Holy Spirit has given to a certain individual. That is up to the Holy Spirit. I understand that the Pope, preachers, elders, me, you are all equal and capable of anything the Holy Spirit gives us the power to do.
There are many verses on "daily renewal of the Holy Spirit."
I wish I had grown up in a Church with more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. Jesus has done his part and went back to Heaven. He told his Father to leave us a Comforter. I'm glad he did. The Holy Spirit doesn't want any glory and guides us towards God. This is also what Jesus did.
I can't remember who on this thread brought it up but it's about worshiping God. Jesus died for our sins, the Holy Spirit guides us, but they both point to worshiping the Father.
This is related to choosing a Pope, preacher, elder how? They are all men. They are all guided by the Holy Spirit. They are all fallible just as we all are. Study for yourself to separate the real teachers from the false teachers. But please don't give up on the true "men of God" preachers for they might have special guidance from the Holy Spirit in a certain area that you don't possess.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Artfuldoger is the only one who has made any sense in any of the spiritual discussion threads! Amen brother!!!!

Thanks for those words of encouragement. It is a fine line as to reading the Bible with non-denominational blinders on and listening to Elders. It takes both. If you hear an elder preach something don't take his word for it. God might have guided him to preach it but he is also guiding you to make sure it's the truth. I'm amazed at how much I took for granted before putting on my non-denominational blinders and truly reading the scriptures.
There is a possibility I have it just as wrong as the next Christian so make sure you read, study, pray, seek, renew with the Holy Spirit, and continue on your lifelong Sanctification process.

 

[StriperAddict]

You made some very good points. I have put way too much faith in man including elders instead of following the Holy Spirit. Since I can easily be lead astray, I need a daily renewal of the Holy Spirit.
That being said at some point in our Christian journey, we have to trust Church elders. Paul was teaching Titus how to be an elder. Even though Titus was a Christian who had the Holy Spirit, he still had to learn to be a good leader. It takes a little bit of himself and a whole lot of the Holy Spirit.

Please explain your reference to Titus 2:10 as it is on how Christian slaves should act. Are you comparing it to us being slaves of God?
In Titus 2 Paul is teaching Titus how the people of Crete should live, old & young men & women, and the Christian slaves. It's a good verse and we can relate to it although it's not advice specifically written for an elder to follow.

The Titus verse says "adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect". I don't believe this is for "slaves" in the physical sense, but the spiritual... perhaps. And the reason I chose this verse was to emphasize that the doctrine of God, namely, the Gospel, will continue to lead any and all into truth, given that a heart is open. And as Christ Jesus is the embodiment of truth, we can glean from Him in the Spirit what we cannot, necessarily, from man.

Paul made no trip to Rome when he penned the pages of the "book of Romans", yet he did due diligence by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to describe the Gospel quite clearly to its citizens, and the world. It has saved me from countless errors and the religious (dead) laws of man that have no place following our resurrected Lord. IMO.

Art, pray for guidance, wisdom and understanding as you open the scriptures, our loving Lord will work with you and in you to set His counsel and His love alive. "They look unto Him and are radiant, and their faces shall never be ashamed" - Psalms
Now if this new pontiff has this effect on folks, so be it... but based on un-scriptural practise of bowing to the blessed mother, I have no association with the man, nor his doctrine.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I have no association with him either as I don't bow to the blessed mother. I don't follow the doctrine of "oneness" or "election" either but have family members who do. I still consider his role important to bring new followers to Christ as I do my family members who follow different beliefs than me.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Thinking about Mary mother of Jesus again. Jesus received his human genetics from Mary. Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god