Born that way?

[Artfuldodger]

Ephesians 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I said earlier that we couldn't do anything about sinning. We were doomed. Just by being born a man we were bound to sin. Maybe the spirit by the name of "the prince of the power of the air" was working on the sons of disobedience. We were actually dead in our transgressions but made alive by God's grace. We were raised or resurrected with Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Without commandment there is no sin. Adam was in Covenant and under a law from God.
Seth was under a law and Seth's descendants. Gentiles were not, but had an open invitation to join Gods people.
Moses law was a written law and was handed down through the generations to Jesus. Their sin was atoned through animal sacrifice annually. The curse of the Law was on their genealogy, therefore they all sinned , from Adam to Jesus.
Being in Adam was ( born into the Law) being in Christ was ( born again into grace). Now there is no Jew nor Gentile, now we are all born out of covenant , but enter covenant through Gods grace, actively in relationship with Christ, obedience to Christ is righteousness, disobedience is sin, and is dealt with through the HS...Not death.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Do you believe "all" in the above verse means "all" that is in covenant with God? Adam's trespass resulted in condemnation for all people in covenant?

Aren't we "all" now in covenant with God since the cross/resurrection/second coming?

Oh, you mean we(Gentiles) weren't in covenant when Adam sinned. Then again Paul said this to the Romans when Gentiles were in covenant.
The grafting of the Gentiles placed them in covenant with God.
They became a part of the "all."

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Again Paul is using the word "all." All will die and all will be made alive. If all means in Adam all will die, why doesn't all mean in Christ all will be made alive?

Some people believe "all will be made alive" means all will be resurrected. I don't think so because Paul said it like this in.....

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

 

[Israel]

Does grace now abound?

Romans 5:21
So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If grace rules why is there still sin? Why even with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit do Christians still sin? I do understand that our sins are washed and our slates wiped clean but why do we still sin?
Sin was to show we needed Jesus. If we accept Jesus then one would think we have learned our lesson of sin's purpose.

The "accepting" of Jesus is the matter. And I cannot dare go into this matter without "back-up" so to speak. Not that I need it for your convincing at all, but for my own necessity of understanding, as your question goes to the very heart of what it means to be found as a man before God.
Presumption (always linked arm in arm...or better breast to breast with pride, as in a dance) was wisely recognized by our brother David in his prayer,

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Our brother Paul, if we believe him to have received anything of truth, of the Lord's life, of the reality of God's intent and purpose in Jesus Christ, was not beyond having to deal with matters of sin, immaturity, particular presumptions and prejudices that were troubling.

He prayed for some "till Christ be fully formed" in them.

To some came stiff rebuke in succumbing to prejudices,
almost sarcastically asking "was Paul crucified for you?"

Some, whom imagined themselves now "masters of the universe" were probed:

For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

And we all know of our brother's dealings with the Galatians.

Surely these accounts validate your question's relevance and apparent piercing contradiction "how can any accept the one who frees them from sin, and still find themselves entangled?"

We may do well to remember, not only Paul's misgivings and troubles...but his responses, never forgetting these things are both chronicled by Paul...and in one very real sense...were happening before Paul, to Paul (though ultimately they are to the Lord)...but here is what I find most important, FOR Paul. For in his seeking to be obedient to the life (that is true life) he could not be spared the experiences of that life, that HE might truly know it.
He would have to know what being sent meant. He would have to learn that here, his own motives would be revealed as impoverished ("who is equal to such a task?" he asked) till his bedrock, in himself, and for himself was found utterly unshakable. Regardless of weakness, of frailty, of manifest and now apparent insufficiency of self effort, Christ triumphs.
We do not want to be "troubled". Ever. But to, as you said "accept Jesus (Christ)" is to also accept all the contradiction against himself in his endurance; to be fully armed, not only in preparation but in embracing his suffering

"Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,"

To the same end as Paul discovered:

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

When we are troubled (and rightly so) by the revelation of sin where it ought not be, we may ask ourselves before God (as a man before God) is it my eye clouded? Am I less single of eye than I presumed so that this abasement comes to sight?
We may find our vision has been severely impaired by our preoccupation with our own self, what "it" sees, what "it" knows, what "it" assumes and presumes.
And there, perhaps, if grace abounds to us through any of the Lord's word, we may be pleased to discover we are never "farther ahead" than the one we may be inclined to identify as the most laggard and impoverished. And then perhaps...stopped in waiting, dead "in our tracks", hung out to dry as a sign, a signal, nothing more than for another to be warned, encouraged, rebuked or comforted (depending upon the eye they have been granted, or as Paul understood "how they 'nose' us") that indeed, the last shall be first, and the first, shall be last.
And the caring of any of it, the responsibility of all of it...is not in our own eye.

For we know we are seen by the One who is both first...and last.

 

[hobbs27]

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Do you believe "all" in the above verse means "all" that is in covenant with God? Adam's trespass resulted in condemnation for all people in covenant?

Aren't we "all" now in covenant with God since the cross/resurrection/second coming?

Oh, you mean we(Gentiles) weren't in covenant when Adam sinned. Then again Paul said this to the Romans when Gentiles were in covenant.
The grafting of the Gentiles placed them in covenant with God.
They became a part of the "all."

The Gentiles were grafted in here post Jesus' ministry on Earth. They were grafted in once death had been defeated. This was in the already, but not yet period. The Law was still active and so was grace.

Look at this verse in Romans 5:13... Without law there was no imputed sin...without being under the law ( Gentiles) they were not judged by the law and imputed sin. They were not Gods people at that time, yet even then they had the option to ( choose!) To be.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The Gentiles were grafted in here post Jesus' ministry on Earth. They were grafted in once death had been defeated. This was in the already, but not yet period. The Law was still active and so was grace.

Look at this verse in Romans 5:13... Without law there was no imputed sin...without being under the law ( Gentiles) they were not judged by the law and imputed sin. They were not Gods people at that time, yet even then they had the option to ( choose!) To be.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Hobbs, I'm not sure I'm quite following what you are trying to show. Can you give me a short(or long) description of how you see sin entering the world and who it affected? Who was the "all" that was condemned by Adam's sin and who was the "all" that was granted justification and life for all people?

Where there is no Law, there is no sin. Yet it is mentioned in the Bible that through one man death came to "all."
If Adam was the first "type" and Jesus was the second "type," what is the connection? What if Adam had not sinned but his son did or his grandson?

When Adam was chosen for covenant there were other people living on the Earth. They were not in covenant with God. What affect did Adam's sin have on them? For our other members on the forum, same question to the Gentiles who weren't under the Law? How did Adam's sin affect them? Were they part of the "all" affected by Adam's sin.

Later there was a local flood that destroyed all the people in covenant with God except Noah. Did the flood change anything to do with Adam's sin and the descendants of Noah? What about the people left on the earth in foreign lands that weren't affected by the flood?

If Jesus defeated death & Satan on the cross, why is sin still present? Evil being different, why is evil still present even after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Last, why do we dwell on sin as Christians if our sins were washed away? If our slates were wiped clean? If none are good? If there is no way we can live with or without the Holy Spirit and stop sinning?
The whole purpose of sin was to show us we needed Jesus. If Jesus died for our sins and granted us salvation from eternal death, why am I still worried by my sins?
In fact it is actually said that Christians don't sin. Meaning because Christ died for us to say that.

 

[hobbs27]

Art, we do sin. Our sin is covered and we are dealt with by our Lord, not separation or the second death which is for those not of Christ.

Think of it like this:
God formed a Nation and wrote a Constitution of law when He brought Adam into Covenant. He provided a place for Adam where all his needs were met and made him a living soul by communing with him.

Adam broke the law and lost his home, and relationship with God. God cast him out, and made a way for him to pay the interest on the debt owed by animal sacrifice.. ( God clothed them in animal skins). Jesus clothes us in righteousness. See Adam faced death, even after physical death he was held in Hades, there was not eternal life in the old covenant..Adam, Abraham, Moses all had to await Christ and the resurrection to finally have eternal life and be in the presence of God.
Adams family continued in Covenant but not direct relationship because the sin imputed on Adam and his people kept them separated. People outside Adams lineage could come in but they too would be susceptible to the Law. People outside the Kingdom of God and Adams lineage could not sin against God because they were not in covenant with God..

If a Canadian commits armed robbery and murder in Canada, they are not subject to the laws and punishment of the state of GA...likewise they are not eligible for the benefits of living in the state of GA.

When Christ came to reconcile man to God , His sacrifice put an end to all sacrifice, not only did He cover the interest on the debt due, He paid the debt in full. He also broke down the genealogical connection to God...no more was a man born into the Law, no more was a man born into original sin, no more should a man be " born again", but be born once into Gods people. A way has been made Salvation, there is no longer Jew or Gentile.

 

[Israel]

Art, we do sin. Our sin is covered and we are dealt with by our Lord, not separation or the second death which is for those not of Christ.

Think of it like this:
God formed a Nation and wrote a Constitution of law when He brought Adam into Covenant. He provided a place for Adam where all his needs were met and made him a living soul by communing with him.

Adam broke the law and lost his home, and relationship with God. God cast him out, and made a way for him to pay the interest on the debt owed by animal sacrifice.. ( God clothed them in animal skins). Jesus clothes us in righteousness. See Adam faced death, even after physical death he was held in Hades, there was not eternal life in the old covenant..Adam, Abraham, Moses all had to await Christ and the resurrection to finally have eternal life and be in the presence of God.
Adams family continued in Covenant but not direct relationship because the sin imputed on Adam and his people kept them separated. People outside Adams lineage could come in but they too would be susceptible to the Law. People outside the Kingdom of God and Adams lineage could not sin against God because they were not in covenant with God..

If a Canadian commits armed robbery and murder in Canada, they are not subject to the laws and punishment of the state of GA...likewise they are not eligible for the benefits of living in the state of GA.

When Christ came to reconcile man to God , His sacrifice put an end to all sacrifice, not only did He cover the interest on the debt due, He paid the debt in full. He also broke down the genealogical connection to God...no more was a man born into the Law, no more was a man born into original sin, no more should a man be " born again", but be born once into Gods people. A way has been made Salvation, there is no longer Jew or Gentile.

I am not sure I understand this in light of this:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Quote;
People outside the Kingdom of God and Adams lineage could not sin against God because they were not in covenant with God..(end quote)

Did these Gentiles that didn't join the covenant have salvation from eternal death? If they weren't in covenant and could not sin because of this, how did it affect their separation from God spiritually?
When Christ came and broke down the genealogical connection were the Gentiles finally apart of Israel/Church? When there was neither Jew or Gentile. What was it like before Christ came for the Gentile concerning life, death, separation form God, and strangers to the covenants?

Ephesians 2:11–12
“Wherefore remember, that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.”

 

[hobbs27]

I am not sure I understand this in light of this:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.

 

[Artfuldodger]

( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.

I'm not quite following you. Once God's chosen were once Jews? Now we are born again into the Church? A man is no longer born into original sin? I can see your point in that we are not born under the Law. Therefore where there is no Law there is no sin.

But to say this has something to do with being born again, I'm not sure. To me we are born once of water(physically) and the later born again as spirit. Why would Nicodemus say must I again enter my Mother's womb if he thought Jesus was telling him he must be born from above?

Maybe "anew" is better.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

 

[hobbs27]

Nicodemus, " teacher of the Jews" was born into a physical Kingdom, physically circumcised into it. They were looking for the Messiah to restore their physical Kingdom, to rid it of Roman rule.
They had it wrong, and Nicodemus to see the Kingdom of God , He and the Kingdom must have been born again... Or born from above.

1 Corinthians 15:46

There is no longer a physical kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom has come and it is in that , which we must be born into.

I'll try to clarify more later when I'm at home and out of these mtns.

 

[Israel]

( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.

I don't think Jesus was saying anything but what you have said, in the above. Not that it is not worthy of reiteration, always, but that it does seem to be a little at odds with your previous statement as to:

no more should a man be " born again", but be born once into Gods people.

I don't think any one here, but I can ultimately only speak for myself, believes there's a "being born twice" into God's Kingdom through the faith of Jesus Christ.

Is there a birth of flesh that is to make way for a birth in the Spirit? I believe it is true that "first birth", first nature of flesh, of the earthy, regardless of a man's esteem of it, means nothing. That which is born of the flesh...is flesh...

(Both pertaining to any particular man, and also...the essence/nature of all pertaining to any particular man, i.e. thoughts, words, deeds)

As Paul said, "for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;"

Those who trusted in God's choosing of them (as we may all take heed) will either show forth the truth of God...or be found, to our dismay and the Lord's displeasure as those "resting on our laurels"...that peculiar pitfall of flesh that is pride...not knowing this is precisely what opposes the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the exact opposite of the obedience of faith...or that which is "boasting in the Lord".
(let he who boasts...)

We take "our stand" on (perhaps!) so many things...seemingly of God till, like the blind feeling their way...our eyes begin to be opened. Our souls becoming informed by the spirit, we then come to loathe them, as each may be displayed as the impoverished and fraudulent things they are.

Christ shows his victory over all, our religious disposition, our inclination toward an unjust balance, our benighted thinking that exalts itself in whatever form that would say to both God, and the world, "lucky for you I am here".

What we do and say to another shows our heart toward God. And either God's heart to "that other", or something elses.

I don't believe Paul was using hyperbole when he said:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

I believe he saw and heard this from, and in, another. And learned it well.

 

[welderguy]

How could a man be condemned by God that is not of Gods chosen?

Simple.Because those that are not God's chosen do not,and cannot believe.Therefore they are condemned already.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Do you think God picks and chooses who is born to be condemned and who is born to everlasting life?

Yes.

John 15:16
" Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Notice,these are the ones that are described as His "friends",that He lay down His life for.(vs.13)
" Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

If so what good is the Gospel, and what value to man did the cross serve?

Mark 16:15-16
" And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam ned."

Those that are chosen shall believe,and will be baptized with the Holy Ghost and "sealed unto redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

The cross,rather the dying on the cross,is what atoned for the sins of the elect,and washed them away forever.

That is the good news!

 

[Artfuldodger]

Simple.Because those that are not God's chosen do not,and cannot believe.Therefore they are condemned already.

That is the good news!

How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?

 

[Israel]

How did Adam's sin affect the Elect?

It has given them every opportunity to rejoice in the One who has forgiven it. And has now given them the life that is dead to it.

 

[hobbs27]

I don't think Jesus was saying anything but what you have said, in the above. Not that it is not worthy of reiteration, always, but that it does seem to be a little at odds with your previous statement as to:


I don't think any one here, but I can ultimately only speak for myself, believes there's a "being born twice" into God's Kingdom through the faith of Jesus Christ.

Is there a birth of flesh that is to make way for a birth in the Spirit? I believe it is true that "first birth", first nature of flesh, of the earthy, regardless of a man's esteem of it, means nothing. That which is born of the flesh...is flesh...

(Both pertaining to any particular man, and also...the essence/nature of all pertaining to any particular man, i.e. thoughts, words, deeds)

As Paul said, "for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;"

Those who trusted in God's choosing of them (as we may all take heed) will either show forth the truth of God...or be found, to our dismay and the Lord's displeasure as those "resting on our laurels"...that peculiar pitfall of flesh that is pride...not knowing this is precisely what opposes the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the exact opposite of the obedience of faith...or that which is "boasting in the Lord".
(let he who boasts...)

We take "our stand" on (perhaps!) so many things...seemingly of God till, like the blind feeling their way...our eyes begin to be opened. Our souls becoming informed by the spirit, we then come to loathe them, as each may be displayed as the impoverished and fraudulent things they are.

Christ shows his victory over all, our religious disposition, our inclination toward an unjust balance, our benighted thinking that exalts itself in whatever form that would say to both God, and the world, "lucky for you I am here".

What we do and say to another shows our heart toward God. And either God's heart to "that other", or something elses.

I don't believe Paul was using hyperbole when he said:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

I believe he saw and heard this from, and in, another. And learned it well.

I stand by my statement, we are not in the same time as they were, we are living in the hope they were looking for.


I believe Peter was writing to those of the remnant that Paul and his cohorts had found and baptized by "calling them out" of the ten tribes which had been previously dispersed and swallowed up by the Gentiles over the previous 700 years (cf. 2 Pet. 3:1 & 15-16 w/ Hos. 8:8). So...

Those to whom Peter was writing were Israelite Gentiles, so to speak, who had been "born again" (per what Jesus said to Nicodemus about the wandering Israelites of that last generation [John 3:1-12, note plural "you" in vv. 7 & 12]) and were at that point and through espousal-purification/sanctification (cf. 1 Pet. 1:22) becoming the full-grown, mature, complete, yea perfect church-bride of/for Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2:1-10, esp. present tense of v. 5). So...

They, who had physically been born into the Old Covenant family of God (1 Pet. 1:1) ... but were lost nonetheless due to their wandering off from Him ... had, through obeying the truth (1 Pet. 1:22) of the preaching of the gospel (1 Pet. 1:25), been born again (1 Pet. 3:21) into the kingdom of Christ('s) blood (1 Pet. 1:19) thereby demonstrating that they were the elect ones (1 Pet. 1:2), i.e. those sheep of Christ's fold who belonged to Him because they heard and heeded His voice (John 10:16 & 27 and context).

 

[welderguy]

How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?

Romans 3:22-23
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The point being made here is that ALL have sinned,regardless of being under the law or not.There is no difference.
But,righteousness is upon all that believe(imputed righteousness).It's by faith....but..

"All men have not faith"(2 Thess.3:2)

 

[hobbs27]

Romans 3:22-23
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The point being made here is that ALL have sinned,regardless of being under the law or not.There is no difference.
But,righteousness is upon all that believe(imputed righteousness).It's by faith....but..

"All men have not faith"(2 Thess.3:2)

Explain sin without law.

 

[hobbs27]

How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?

We are the non elect, it has no bearing on us.

The elect was a group of people from Christ's ministry to 70 ad. There's been no elect since .
The whole idea that men are predestined to salvation minimizes the Cross to a useless physical act.