Born that way?

[welderguy]

Explain sin without law.

Let's take Cain for example.

1 John 3:12
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Was Cain condemned? Yes. Because he was "of that wicked one."

 

[welderguy]

We are the non elect, it has no bearing on us.

The elect was a group of people from Christ's ministry to 70 ad. There's been no elect since .
The whole idea that men are predestined to salvation minimizes the Cross to a useless physical act.

Rom.9 says the children having not yet done good or evil,that the PURPOSE OF ELECTION might stand,not of works ,but of Him that calleth.

Seems to me that election had a purpose far before Christ's earthly ministry and 70 AD.

 

[hobbs27]

Rom.9 says the children having not yet done good or evil,that the PURPOSE OF ELECTION might stand,not of works ,but of Him that calleth.

Seems to me that election had a purpose far before Christ's earthly ministry and 70 AD.

The question would be , election of what? . Noah could have been elected to build an ark, that doesn't mean he was part of the elect.

 

[hobbs27]

Let's take Cain for example.

1 John 3:12
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Was Cain condemned? Yes. Because he was "of that wicked one."

Cain wasn't condemned because he was of the wicked one, he was condemned because he broke the law.( Sinned )..there was law before Moses.... When he slew Abel.

 

[welderguy]

The question would be , election of what? . Noah could have been elected to build an ark, that doesn't mean he was part of the elect.

It wasn't the building of the ark that made Noah an elect(for by grace are ye saved,and that not of works lest any man should boast).

Gen.6:8 says "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
It also says in verse 9 "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

The only way Noah had any justification was through Jesus Christ.It's simply the ONLY way.

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Rom.8:30 applied just as much to Noah as it does to any of the elect of God:

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[hobbs27]

The only way Noah had any justification was through Jesus Christ.It's simply the ONLY way.

Noah found grace in the eye of the Lord.
Noah walked with God.

Yet Noah was not saved, Noah did not have eternal life, because Christ had not made eternal life obtainable yet.

When Noah gave up the ghost, Noah went to Hades in Abraham's bosom and awaited the resurrection of the " dead ones"_ Which was made possible only by The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To say Noah had eternal life before the Cross, To say anyone is saved at the foundation of the world ..is to say there is a Salvation and a way of eternal life that does not involve the Cross..

That is my problem with predestination, it makes the Cross a mere symbolic jesture, and totally negates the necessity of the shed blood....I mean, who needs it if you were born with it?

 

[welderguy]

Noah found grace in the eye of the Lord.
Noah walked with God.

Yet Noah was not saved, Noah did not have eternal life, because Christ had not made eternal life obtainable yet.

When Noah gave up the ghost, Noah went to Hades in Abraham's bosom and awaited the resurrection of the " dead ones"_ Which was made possible only by The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To say Noah had eternal life before the Cross, To say anyone is saved at the foundation of the world ..is to say there is a Salvation and a way of eternal life that does not involve the Cross..

That is my problem with predestination, it makes the Cross a mere symbolic jesture, and totally negates the necessity of the shed blood....I mean, who needs it if you were born with it?

The blood of the cross reaches all God's elect,past present and future.The things you are having trouble with are no trouble at all when you understand that concept.
Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8)

So that this...:

Heb.11:7
" By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the RIGHTEOUSNESS which is BY FAITH."

....applies to Noah as well as us.

Read this verse and insert Noah's name in place of "we":

Rom.5:6
" For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

The key is "in due time".

 

[hobbs27]

No No:

The blood of the cross reaches all God's elect,past present and future.The things you are having trouble with are no trouble at all when you understand that concept.
Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8)

So that this...:

Heb.11:7
" By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the RIGHTEOUSNESS which is BY FAITH."

....applies to Noah as well as us.

Read this verse and insert Noah's name in place of "we":

Rom.5:6
" For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

The key is "in due time".

I'm not going to insert Noah into the ( we ) of that verse because audience relevance matters.

Believe it or not, there was a time before the blood was shed, there was a time before eternal life...the resurrection Paul claimed as the Hope of Israel! Israel awaited this , as Martha made clear concerning Lazarus, I know he will rise in the last days...There's a reason they were dead and not in Gods presence.. There's a reason Samuel was raised from the dead and told Saul he would be with him the following day. There's a reason Jesus said no man had been to heaven but the Son....

 

[gemcgrew]

Believe it or not, there was a time before the blood was shed, there was a time before eternal life...

There is no "time before" with God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I stand by my statement, we are not in the same time as they were, we are living in the hope they were looking for.


I believe Peter was writing to those of the remnant that Paul and his cohorts had found and baptized by "calling them out" of the ten tribes which had been previously dispersed and swallowed up by the Gentiles over the previous 700 years (cf. 2 Pet. 3:1 & 15-16 w/ Hos. 8:8). So...

Those to whom Peter was writing were Israelite Gentiles, so to speak, who had been "born again" (per what Jesus said to Nicodemus about the wandering Israelites of that last generation [John 3:1-12, note plural "you" in vv. 7 & 12]) and were at that point and through espousal-purification/sanctification (cf. 1 Pet. 1:22) becoming the full-grown, mature, complete, yea perfect church-bride of/for Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2:1-10, esp. present tense of v. 5). So...

They, who had physically been born into the Old Covenant family of God (1 Pet. 1:1) ... but were lost nonetheless due to their wandering off from Him ... had, through obeying the truth (1 Pet. 1:22) of the preaching of the gospel (1 Pet. 1:25), been born again (1 Pet. 3:21) into the kingdom of Christ('s) blood (1 Pet. 1:19) thereby demonstrating that they were the elect ones (1 Pet. 1:2), i.e. those sheep of Christ's fold who belonged to Him because they heard and heeded His voice (John 10:16 & 27 and context).

I read somewhere that the lost Jews were now Gentiles and Gentiles are now Jews. Something along the lines of the lost tribes being assimilated into Gentiles and Gentiles grafted onto the Olive Tree. The Jews rejected God so the Church became the New Israel which is full of Gentiles.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Now I know that many including most reformed believers see no differences in time. They only see grace and the time of the events aren't important. The "time" of Christ's death is unimportant as "time" is unimportant.

If this is true then what does Ephesians 2:12-14 mean?

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

It appears there was a time when we weren't all one body in Christ. There was a time gentiles were separate from Christ, having no hope and without God. Yet at the moment in time that Christ died they were brought near. This event in "time" made both groups one.

Romans 11 confirms this event in that there was a remnant of Jews save but we read;
Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Their loss means riches for the Gentiles, their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, they now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

This was an event in "time."

 

[hawglips]

So you weren't born that way but chose sinning by choice?

What part did Adam have in making you accountable for your sins?

Do you believe you had sinned before being born a man?

I believe that we all sin, by virtue of who we are. Adam's transgression made my existence as a human possible, and allowed me the opportunity know good from evil, and to choose for myself.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I believe that we all sin, by virtue of who we are. Adam's transgression made my existence as a human possible, and allowed me the opportunity know good from evil, and to choose for myself.

1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

It's almost like just because Adam sinned we're all gonna die.
I can't put my finger on it or wrap my brain around that concept. His sin doing something to make me sin.
The above verse makes it sound like I have no choice in this death except to accept Jesus.
Because of Adam, I have no choice but to sin. Isn't this why I need salvation?

 

[gordon 2]

1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

It's almost like just because Adam sinned we're all gonna die.
I can't put my finger on it or wrap my brain around that concept. His sin doing something to make me sin.
The above verse makes it sound like I have no choice in this death except to accept Jesus.
Because of Adam, I have no choice but to sin. Isn't this why I need salvation?

Jesus is reported to have said that for God all are alive.

"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."( Luke 20:38)

I have heard brothers of ours say that Adam's fall was a fall from Grace, or a spiritual death from being directly in the presence of God and therefore because of Adam's sin we the descendants of Adam are dead to an intimate union or communion with God-- until its restoration by Jesus and the ministry of the Christian Church.

That none come to the Father except through Jesus does not mean that non Christians are not spiritual beings with some knowledge of God and that He does minister to them as he ministered to Adam and all mankind after the fall.

That none come to the Father except they are born again and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit ( which is through Christ) who guides believers in their new communion with God--seems to me a spiritual restoration from the death of an intimate relationship between man and God to new beginnings in that sometimes overwhelming relationship. And it is overwhelming because as renewed beings a new perspective is gained not only of our Father, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit and the Church, of the presence and the heavenly, but also of the world and in our interactions with it, and the possibility to again fall, not unlike Adam, from Grace. Perhaps.

 

[hobbs27]

1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.

Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!!
You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.

 

[gemcgrew]

An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.

Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!!
You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.

Go back one verse and start over.

 

[welderguy]

An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.

Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!
You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.

1 Cor. 15:22
" For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


When Adam ate the forbidden fruit,that very day,he began to die.His body began to age.

Gen.2:17
" But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.".
(thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die).


When Christ comes the second time,all men will be resurrected(made alive).

 

[hobbs27]

Gem, Welder... It makes no difference if I go back one verse.
If all men die in Adam...All men are made alive in Christ. It's universalism, plain and simple...unless you want to make an unbibilical claim that the Condemned are made alive ( IN CHRIST ).

If that's your stance I can show biblical where you are wrong.

 

[welderguy]

Gem, Welder... It makes no difference if I go back one verse.
If all men die in Adam...All men are made alive in Christ. It's universalism, plain and simple...unless you want to make an unbibilical claim that the Condemned are made alive ( IN CHRIST ).

If that's your stance I can show biblical where you are wrong.

Universalism is the belief that all people will be saved.
I do not believe that.I believe in election and limited atonement.

Regarding 1 Cor.15:22, it certainly involves every human being because it's refering to physical death of the body and physical resurrection of the same body,which will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

"We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed..."

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Many verses on death coming through one man and life coming through one man.

Reading back in Romans 5, I had said that Adam takes out more than Jesus can save. Reading further in Chapter 5 we read this in verses 17-18;

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

I'm wondering who the "all" were. Through Adam "all" were condemned. Through Jesus "all" received justification of life.

Why doesn't "all" mean everyone? I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean all will be saved yet it does mean all will die if not justified.

Let's continue on;

Romans 5:19-20;
19Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Verses 19 uses "many" instead of all. Many will become sinners because of Adam, many will be made righteous through Jesus.

Can we safely say that through Adam came spiritual death to all and that through Jesus many will be saved? I think so by using other scriptures.

I had brought this up earlier.