intresting read

Even better than reg hardwoods is flood plain. I think it's the perfect habitat. Acorns and seed for miles washes down every ditch and settles with the water. Bugs. Sandy areas for dusting.

Couldn’t agree more on the floodplain. That at one time is the only place you could find a turkey when numbers were low In 70”s. Stock was released in our hardwood river bottoms for a reason.

There are places that ive noticed that have less game and nothing has changed as far as habitat, that I can see. The only difference is the coyote population explosion

walked for miles this weekend

on the national forest in Jasper County. I saw lots of hardwoods that did not survive the control burns. Did not see very much deer sign, and for the fist time in a long time, I did not see much Turkey sign. A little bit of scratching, no tracks and no turkey sign in the roadways.

Did not hear any gobble Saturday morning, but in fairness I did not hear any on PNWR either. So, maybe none gobbled Saturday morning.

I stand by everything I wrote in this thread. Our turkeys are suffering, but habitat loss is something that could be done something about.

Nobody here said control burning is not good. Your killing hardwoods when you don't firebreak around the bottoms. Your killing young turkeys when you burn in the spring time, be it by egg or by poults.

I've been a member of the National Wild Turkey Federation for a long time. I don't see them taking a stand against timber companies who are harvesting hardwood bottoms and replanting pines by the miles.

"Save the habitat, save the hunt"

They need to step up and practice what they preach.

The woods don't look the same in the past 30 years and they are not replanting hardwoods for the ones that have been cut. So, let me guess, my grandchildren will hunt forest of nothing but pine trees?

I'm glad that one day I can go home to my lord so that I don't have to watch it again. I promise you this. For those who lived it, and knew what the woods looked like before they were "conditioned" , it will be a depressing sight for them as well.

What happened to leaving the land better than we found it?

Turkeys are already on private properties where the habitat remains favorable. Heck, maybe bass fishing will take up my time.

good luck this season

s&r

http://www.nwtf.org/conservation/article/a-hot-topic

http://www.nwtf.org/conservation/article/prescribed-fire-research
http://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/4-great-wild-turkey-habitats



If you’re a member of NWTF maybe you should pay more attention to their research on burning. Here’s two of their articles since you’re a member that maybe you missed...

Keep the articles coming. Doesn’t change the fact that a burn in may or June kills hardwoods. And how how does killing a mast tree do anything for wildlife . I was on sapelo this fall and see where the burns have devasted the live Oaks on the island . The fire gets too hot in late spring for them to withstand. They don’t die immediately but are very stunted and die in time. And I know turkeys re nest when the nest is destroyed. My question is why would you want to force that on purpose. I can assure you that a hen that loses a clutch of 10 will only lay a fraction of that on a second nesting. Again this whole mindset may be why turkey numbers plummet in some areas such as in some of our national forest lands where this is done.
On on sapelo or any other area where this practice is used it limits the food sources. Deer and turkey need more than just tender brouse to survive and thrive. Maybe the NWTF need to reconsider there stance on burning. No doubt it’s great and I believe in it but MaY and June?? Nope!!!

Speaking of hardwoods. I peeked on Google Earth at the 342 acres of GP land where I started turkey hunting years ago. That clearcut/replanted area in the pic was hardwoods. They cut them all the way to the ditch itself. And along the main beaver swamp. The adjoining tract I hunted was 743 acres of hardwoods and a few big loblolly pines. It's all planted pines now as well. And the 400 acres beside it. So much for turkey heaven. Same on any other property I've hunted.

A common issue and problem. I had a 250 acre tract last year of pines that had been 5th row thinned . Across the creek was hard wood creek bottom not my property. The creek bottom on my side was a clearcut jungle grown up . Of course you know how that turned out. All season the turkey stayed in the big timber across the creek. I’m a good turkey hunter but that particular tract was not favorable for turkeys. Why? No roost trees and no food sources as compared to the adjacent property which again “held” turkeys all season... No food no wildlife. Simple concept. The deer guys ran feeders year round and turkeys still did not favor this tract vs across the creek ... would make a great NWTF research project..

By the next satellite fly over the bigger planted pines will be cut. They are at least 30 yrs in this pic. They would have to walk through a jungle of young planted pines just to roost on the ditch. They will be long gone. All about a pine tree.

The timber companies agreed to compromise and provide what they call wildlife openings.. they stick a pretty sign on it to make it look like they are truly managing wildlife . They really could care less. Those pine trees trump all..

Garnto88 said:

Never seen a turkey roost in clearcut maybe because there are no trees. No roost trees and turkeys move. No mast trees no food. A clearcut is only good for a turkey to even walk in for two or three years at most. Then becomes a jungle. This mindset is why our turkey population struggles. Place turkey populations in a smaller area or range and they become more susceptible to every predator man or animal. I’m sorry you can debunk all you want. A pine forest is not the ideal turkey habitat. Talk and debate all you want. When it comes to holding turkeys or deer for that matter a mature hardwood pine mix is ideal. Mast trees are essential to maintain both. Turkeys depend on acorns just as deer, ducks, hogs, etc. Hunting as become such a food plot mentality sport. I’ve seen hunters destroy a great funnel area for deer by going in and cutting down the trees to plant a food plot.. never dawns that the reason they funneled through was because of the mast trees that were found there.. I find it sad the mentality of many of today’s hunters toward the habitat. I leased a beautiful tract last year of hardwood pine mixed and it “held” turkeys all year. This year it’s totally clear cut. Only way now il catch one there is hope they pass through or use tgat area . The whole way of hunting it will change and In two years it will be a thicket. Another hunter stated “it’s a beautiful clearcut” . I’ve never seen a beautiful clearcut . They are all a destruction. It was beautiful before. Never will see it they way it was again period.

Click to expand...

Seriously? Trees are grown to be cut. Sounds like you need to buy your own instead of crying about some harvesting their timber. Fwiw, my youth hunter smoked a 3yr old bird in a clear cut Sat am...

I’ll make a proposition, next year, I’ll bring each one of you to South Georgia to hunt in the Pine woods with no hardwoods in sight and I bet you’ll have the greatest hunt of your life. I’m saving this thread as a bookmark so I can find each of you. By the way, the manager of sapelo is a good friend of mine. We actually went out 3 times last year and did deer surveys and you’d be surprised at the size of the deer and quantity and quality. He is doing growing season burns on the island to restore the island from the previous managers neglect. It takes growing season burns and a roller chopper to get rid of that pesky saw palmetto..

I'm sure you are doing good things down there, Luke. I don't doubt that at all. It's a different ecosystem as well. Y'all manage what you have in the best way. I'm not saying things can't be improved with pines. I've had success in all kinds of situations with land types. But, think of it as the guy who has to lease a place to hunt. It is what it is. When the hardwoods are shrunk to nothing, all he will have is pines. If it's not a large enough tract to have different stages of growth, there will long periods of time the turkey hunting will be terrible. He may be leasing 300 acres of 4 yr old pine jungle at some stage. He'll have to suffer it out, or move on to the next lease. On top of that there's not much he can do as the person leasing the place to improve upon it. That's up to a timber company. Some aren't lighting a match. If we all had control of what we hunted, we could do great things. I think that's where everyone is getting off base. If I could choose the perfect hunting environment, it would have flood plains, hardwoods, and pines at different stages of growth. But, I'd need about 1500 acres. lol That's why I've been on large leases for the better part of my life. 2000 or more acres. If we want to do anything we have to meet with the timber guy and basically call the forestry service. But, it's hard to keep pouring sweat and dollars into what may be gone tomorrow for improvement.

Mexican Squealer said:

Seriously? Trees are grown to be cut. Sounds like you need to buy your own instead of crying about some harvesting their timber. Fwiw, my youth hunter smoked a 3yr old bird in a clear cut Sat am...

Click to expand...

If you want to join in with some intelligent convo, feel free. Otherwise, we are discussing turkey habitat. Not smoking stuff, or crying.

No one has ever said a turkey couldn’t be killed in a clearcut as I have done that myself and Luke I’ve killed many in pine woods. Il hunt him wherever he is. Again you miss the boat but I can assure you I’d gladly join in on a hunt on any tract. Mexican enjoy that clearcut your time is running out on when you can hunt that as it will be a jungle soon. Sapelo is blessed with a good deer population but I think you would agree there are some areas that the live oak are not thriving due to fire? Maybe you can answer as to why do away with a native tree such as a live oak . This would be in hardwood/pine mature sections not in a pine plot. I do agree with burning I really do but question the effects truly on the habitat and effect on wildlife of a late season burn. I wish folks would do more dormant season burns.

I’m totally against killing any mature oak with fire. We promote the best possible conditions to keep our live oak and sand live oak alive that are within the Pine stand. Mowing underneath and then putting a break around them. We depend on those very trees to provide thermal regulation for both turkey and quail in the fall. I think some people just don’t take extra measures. Fire in its whole entirety is to promote a good understory. Some don’t desire oak regeneration in the understory. I think that’s when it gets tricky. My whole point of posting in this thread was the idea that growing seasons are bad. You receive the best results from small growing season burns in blocks across a landscape. I totally understnd what y’all are saying that you do not want to see large scale growing season burns and I can understand that I just want the point to be that growing season fires are completely beneficial if done by a skilled prescribed burner. Be it as you may, you can continue to fight whomever at whatever level of government agency on the removal of hardwood trees. I have never first hand seen them cutting in riparian zones and watershed management zones. I do know every spring that my hardwoods and my pinewoods and fields are no match for the properly kept up loblolly Pine clearcut in the early stages when it comes to holding turkeys. They will roost in the very few hardwood trees left over the clearcut and fly down into the clearcut that is now around 8 years old and I won’t get a chance at any of those gobblers. I think all of your complaints deal with not the operation or the style but with unskilled “professionals” conducting all of these operations that do in turn harm wildlife. I sometimes don’t agree with the many things that go on through state agencies but sometimes they have different goals in mind. I wish you all the best hunting season. Continue reading articles on fire, you’ll understand better. Fire ecology is a tough thing to study but it is really beneficial.

Been a good thread. I have learned a lot from reading and I agree some do a better job than others. Good luck this year..

2?'s

Who is burning in may and June and spurs and racks where do you hunt where these toms have body guard hens

I think....

"I think some people just don’t take extra measures"

You realize we are talking about the forestry service and Oconee National Forest. And the PNWR and all of the forestry land within the boundary of Cedar Creek WMA and Oconee WMA and Redlands.

s&r

I like elk hunting.