A guy walks into your church ...

[hobbs27]

I gotta agreed with 70 AD on this one. Man that hurt. Think it's gonna scar too.

I was just thinking about the order in which one is saved. Salvation then repentance vs. repentance then Salvation, but thanks for seeing that in the text, I'll file it away as yet another proof text.

 

[centerpin fan]

Titus 3:5-7

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




You were dead in sin until you were made alive by regeneration. Alive to spiritual things that before were foolishness to you. You could not nor would not repent. But you were called out of darkness into His marvelous light. Now you are a new creature with another nature. You are "in Christ".(Rom. 8:1)

Any comment on the Acts 3 passage mentioned in post 1 and post 34?

In the NT, you have John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles preaching repentance.

 

[hummerpoo]

Google "Ordo Salutis"

Carefully read the first 7 articles listed on reliable websights;
at the same time keeping track of the lists encountered.

Finally compare the lists you have found.

If the articles you read are original work (no plagiarism)you are unlikely to have a match;
but you will have gained some understanding of the basis on which the differing lists have been compiled.

edit>>>
For those who prefer short cuts here is a paragraph from theopedia.com, but this alone does not give the understanding I referred to above.


The debate over "ordo salutis" is most keenly evident between the Reformed and Arminian systems. For the Reformed tradition the "ordo salutis" is: election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. For the Arminian view, the "ordo salutis" is: evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification. These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here, but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Google "Ordo Salutis"

Carefully read the first 7 articles listed on reliable websights;
at the same time keeping track of the lists encountered.

Finally compare the lists you have found.

If the articles you read are original work (no plagiarism)you are unlikely to have a match;
but you will have gained some understanding of the basis on which the differing lists have been compiled.

edit>>>
For those who prefer short cuts here is a paragraph from theopedia.com, but this alone does not give the understanding I referred to above.


The debate over "ordo salutis" is most keenly evident between the Reformed and Arminian systems. For the Reformed tradition the "ordo salutis" is: election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. For the Arminian view, the "ordo salutis" is: evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification. These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here, but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.

OK, I haven't googled but why is there no conversion in the Arminian path? I would agree with the last sentence in that some of these things are overlapping and/or happening simultaneously.

 

[hummerpoo]

OK, I haven't googled but why is there no conversion in the Arminian path? I would agree with the last sentence in that some of these things are overlapping and/or happening simultaneously.

Answer #1 — You probably answered your own question.
Answer #2 — IF your read the article you will find definitions that will help you further answer your question.
Answer #3 — Your question shows why I'm not trying to reinvent a worn out wheel.

 

[welderguy]

Any comment on the Acts 3 passage mentioned in post 1 and post 34?

In the NT, you have John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles preaching repentance.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?

important note:
We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?

important note:
We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.

converted from what to become what?

 

[welderguy]

converted from what to become what?

Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.

Remember what Jesus told Peter?

Luke 22
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.


Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.

 

[centerpin fan]

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?

important note:
We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.

Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.

Remember what Jesus told Peter?

Luke 22
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.


Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. If you look at the totality of scripture, repentance is not ambiguous. Throughout the Bible, God raises up prophets and apostles to call the people to repent of their wickedness and turn to God. Just a few examples:

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. Ezek 14:6


Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Ezek 18:30


For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Jonah 3:6-8


When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mk 2:17

 

[welderguy]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. If you look at the totality of scripture, repentance is not ambiguous. Throughout the Bible, God raises up prophets and apostles to call the people to repent of their wickedness and turn to God. Just a few examples:

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. Ezek 14:6


Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Ezek 18:30


For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Jonah 3:6-8


When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mk 2:17

I agree with what you are saying if you are applying it to this life. But it's when you apply it as our means of obtaining eternal life, I strongly disagree. Man cannot do anything to obtain eternal life. If he could, it would no longer be of grace.(unmerited favor)

 

[hobbs27]

I agree with what you are saying if you are applying it to this life. But it's when you apply it as our means of obtaining eternal life, I strongly disagree. Man cannot do anything to obtain eternal life. If he could, it would no longer be of grace.(unmerited favor)

if Jesus died on the cross to make a way for whosoever will, how does that redefine grace?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Peter says these men denied the Lord Jesus when they delivered Him up to be crucified. But he also says they did it in ignorance, and he calls them brethren. He's telling them to turn from their iniquities.

Remember what Jesus told Peter?

Luke 22
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have 31you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.


Peter was in fact converted from his denial of Jesus, and he was told to strengthen his brethren likewise. I believe he was doing just that in Acts 3.

Could I relate this about Peter and Acts to Romans 11 as it pertains to ignorance, grace, election, and not of works?
Acts 3:17-19
And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Romans 11:5-7
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.7So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

If the group in Romans 1 is related to Israel then I can also see a relation to election, conversion, backsliding, repentance, conversion such as Peter and Israel experienced;

Romans 1:19-23
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.22Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.23And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

Acts 3:17-19
And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

This group knew God. How does one know God?
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

They knew God and were without excuse to not worship him. God is revealing wrath upon them for suppressing the truth. A blind man can't suppress the truth because he doesn't "know" the truth.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

This repentance and conversion is speaking of returning to a former state. Peter is not telling them to become something they have not yet been(saved), but rather to turn back again to the way they already were before. To repent of their backslidings, so to speak. The "refreshing" is another way of saying revival. It's not the freshening(regeneration), it's a RE-freshening(conversion).See the distinction?

important note:
We are only regenerated once, but we are converted multiple times throughout our lives.

Could this explain why I still have lust in my heart? Even though I'm elected and called? I think most refer to the "calling" as the "conversion" so that might be confusing.

Anyway one can be saved such as Peter and me yet still deny God through direct denial or denial through sin.
Therefore when I have lust in my heart, I go through a process of repent, convert, repent, convert,etc.?
Even though I have the Holy Spirit? Even though I'm producing fruit? I'm still going through this process of repeatedly repenting & converting. Just like Peter did and Just like Peter and Paul are telling Israel to do.

So getting back to the OP, how do we judge considering that we don't know where one is in the process of this constantly repenting and converting?

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Some time in our own repenting process, we all are at the point of doing the same things we judge others of doing.

Regarding the OP though, one would like to see his fellow Christian getting more righteous as he goes up the regeneration process. One's regeneration process should look like steps or one of those financial charts showing overall process with some backsliding along the way.
Calling it repenting, converting, repenting, converting. Sure, why not.

 

[welderguy]

if Jesus died on the cross to make a way for whosoever will, how does that redefine grace?

The whosoever that will, are the whosoever that are made willing by the regenerating Holy Spirit.

 

[welderguy]

Could this explain why I still have lust in my heart? Even though I'm elected and called? I think most refer to the "calling" as the "conversion" so that might be confusing.

Anyway one can be saved such as Peter and me yet still deny God through direct denial or denial through sin.
Therefore when I have lust in my heart, I go through a process of repent, convert, repent, convert,etc.?
Even though I have the Holy Spirit? Even though I'm producing fruit? I'm still going through this process of repeatedly repenting & converting. Just like Peter did and Just like Peter and Paul are telling Israel to do.

So getting back to the OP, how do we judge considering that we don't know where one is in the process of this constantly repenting and converting?

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Some time in our own repenting process, we all are at the point of doing the same things we judge others of doing.

Yes and there is a warfare between our two natures.
Back to the OP, we don't judge the heart, only the fruits, but then it's only those in the church.God judges those outside the church.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The whosoever that will, are the whosoever that are made willing by the regenerating Holy Spirit.

So back to the OP, how do we know if the man who walks into a Church has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Couldn't he just be in a need or place in time where his heart is in the place Peter's was at?
Mind you the OP used unrepentant homosexuality but it would be the same for any sin to include lust or overeating. None of us have repented in respect to "stop" sinning.

How could I, who has lust in his heart, judge a man who overeats? Isn't Romans 2:1 telling me I'm doing the same thing by having lust in my heart as the man who is overeating?

Does having lust in my heart prove I'm not providing the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Does it show that I haven't repented?

If I was the guy who walked in off the street and said, I want to join your Church but I have lust in my heart? Would it matter if I tried to repent but couldn't? Does a desire to quit count as quitting?

How much repentance is proof? One sin a day or twenty? How many fruits is proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? One fruit a day or twenty?

Since salvation is from grace and God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, why do we concentrate on judging fruit so much? Unless as suggested, we aren't judging to prove salvation as God judges outside the Church. We are judging within the Church, but for what reason?

Are we judging within the Church to help our brothers repent? But if we don't even let them in, how do they repent from their sin? If man can help someone repent from sin, then that person would have to already be a Christian. Correct?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:5
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation is receiving, not giving.

That being said, we still have that "proof of the Holy Spirit through fruits" thing. It's a thin line, this grace vs works thing.

Romans 11:5-7
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God's grace--his undeserved kindness in choosing them.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

 

[Israel]

If you claim to know what you would do in any situation, respond to in any hypothetical, you may have well forgotten...who you are, and already have been is now out of your hands...also.

 

[Georgia Hard Hunter]

it really amazes me when something happens bad from one of these types and people are dumbfounded of how it ever happened. Most are looking for handouts to begin with. Couldn't care less about your religion or morals.

wow