Bart Ehrman article

[bullethead]

If some anonymous author writing metaphysical tales about Jesus 60 years after Jesus is dead is accepted by "you" because it is "all you got to go by", I provided you another non anonymous source to "go by" which was written about the same time frame and referenced the same Jesus and does not mention a single metaphysical occurrence. Both authors tell the same basic story , one without the embellishments.

I cannot understand why 8 contemporary sources which have been proven to be forgeries and later additions are always used by Pro Christians and yet the same Pro's try to refute contemporary sources which have not been proven to be anything but genuine unless it is solely because they do not want to hear anything that does not agree with what they believe even though these other sources fit the criteria given by the Pro side as to why they believe the rest.

 

[Spotlite]

If some anonymous author writing metaphysical tales about Jesus 60 years after Jesus is dead is accepted by "you" because it is "all you got to go by", I provided you another non anonymous source to "go by" which was written about the same time frame and referenced the same Jesus and does not mention a single metaphysical occurrence. Both authors tell the same basic story , one without the embellishments.

I cannot understand why 8 contemporary sources which have been proven to be forgeries and later additions are always used by Pro Christians and yet the same Pro's try to refute contemporary sources which have not been proven to be anything but genuine unless it is solely because they do not want to hear anything that does not agree with what they believe even though these other sources fit the criteria given by the Pro side as to why they believe the rest.

Because it really has not as much do with what is written as you think. I mean it does, but it’s more than those words, and whole heck of a lot more than just deciding to believe what’s written.

Lay aside standards and criteria. It’s an experience, and it’s real.

 

[Israel]

I just cannot find ANY outside sources that record anything of Jesus coming back from the dead. None.


THE TALMUD

The Talmud is essentially the collection of Jewish oral traditions that were put into writing with additional commentary between the years of AD 70 and 200. From the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a includes:

"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of the Passover.

"The facts in this passage are somewhat difficult to assimilate. Although Yeshu is referring to Jesus, the announcement that he was to be stoned (a lethal punishment) is followed by the statement that he was hanged (crucified). One possible explanation is that the Jewish leadership's call for his stoning preceded his eventual arrest by at least those forty days. This would be consistent with Scripture's accounts of his numerous near-stonings (John 10:31-33, 11:8 ).

"Jesus' death by crucifixion may have then just been a matter of Roman involvement in the affair. Perhaps it is more likely that his sudden crucifixion (which immediately followed his arrest and dubious midnight trial) was gladly allowed by the Jewish leaders to pre-empt the normal forty day holding period for a condemned man. The leaders may have feared that, during this time, Jesus' followers might have been able to organize his release or stir up an outcry against them."

What you quote above:

"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of the Passover.

Is also all I can find (and only in the Babylonian Talmud) of any possible reference making that Yeshu fit the Jesus hanged on the tree outside of Jerusalem (though lacking that specificity).

OK.

But it's just a repeat of what the gospel's themselves relate as the view some held...and of which Jesus was already accused:

"It is by the prince of demons he casts out demons"

Mt 9:34

i.e. sorcerer.

Also added is the same accusation of "enticing and leading astray"...a deceiver

And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

Jn 7:12

Not at all different than most accusations today, charismatic liar/magician with powers attributed to deceive multitudes (even down through the ages.)

Or something else altogether.


And has also, is also "troubling the world".

(We are quite close...for those who have not yet known it, or been able to receive it...that His words and preaching in truth have never been compatible with the world and again His word and preaching will be broadly criminalized...for the spiritually dense who have some how thought the world has become a more "enlightened" place.)

The witness of Christ who bears His testimony has always known this. Some have been awakened to it, while others still slumber. The time of light is appointed to each as it is ordained.

But, if taking (as I do take) the truth that some have always said He is a liar, a deceiver, a leader astray and even sorcerer, none of that makes the case that he must have been (in His time) a good and simple (as a Jew of authority in that time would appraise) Torah believing teacher and preacher. It only supports that to some who had the power to do so, He was rejected as any such thing. Leveling accusations and acted upon by which they found Him worthy of death for them.

Yes, Jesus Christ is/was and remains public enemy #1 to the status quo.

But to the some who have been made able to receive their righteous judgment as criminal and treacherous to their Maker He's more than good friend...a Savior...who has graciously included them in His death to, and for, sin.

Yep, I believe the Jesus that says and said this to some of those Jews, no longer ignorant nor naive of how provocational [sic] it is:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Yes, that man meets each and every man (whether Jew or not) with the same testimony...everything you may think is a something in and of itself is nothing but about me. Yes, even all of resistance.

How can that not be an offense to men who believe they can choose to attach significance where they will? And count as of so little significance...the One about whom all creation is centered.

(yep Bullet...even ballistic tables, the physics is all of Him)

And as to Jesus Christ's relationship to Torah I hold no doubt as He embraced it as the only man ever to...in truth.

 

[hummerpoo]

Because it really has not as much do with what is written as you think. I mean it does, but it’s more than those words, and whole heck of a lot more than just deciding to believe what’s written.

Lay aside standards and criteria. It’s an experience, and it’s real.

If I may add: And experiences can only be meaningfully shared with someone who has a similar experience to that which is being shared.

Although, with a sufficiency of love/trust, one can believe that the other person actually possesses the experience, while not meaningfully understanding the experience itself.

 

[bullethead]

Because it really has not as much do with what is written as you think. I mean it does, but it’s more than those words, and whole heck of a lot more than just deciding to believe what’s written.

Lay aside standards and criteria. It’s an experience, and it’s real.

It took centuries of forced indoctrination based off of those words to have them moulded into people's daily routines. It was the law that you must believe them. Words matter and without those words you would be telling me the same thing about some other story. As much good as bad has been perpetrated from those words.
And I can relate to it all. I once lived it also. I thought as you do. I felt as you do. I felt as though I experienced it. I know where you are coming from and I know what you are trying to describe to me even if you do not think that you are saying it exactly as you mean it sometimes. I can also tell you that it took years for me to lose those "feelings" so I can look at it all objectively.
I cannot buy into Santa for Adults anymore.
Edited for spelling

 

[bullethead]

What you quote above:



Is also all I can find (and only in the Babylonian Talmud) of any possible reference making that Yeshu fit the Jesus hanged on the tree outside of Jerusalem (though lacking that specificity).

It was just another crucifixion. It happened constantly.

OK.

But it's just a repeat of what the gospel's themselves relate as the view some held...and of which Jesus was already accused:

The argument is as strong for it to being a precursor to what the Gospels wrote as your claim of a repeat.

Mt 9:34

i.e. sorcerer.

Also added is the same accusation of "enticing and leading astray"...a deceiver

Jn 7:12

Even Pharoah's magician could turn a stick into a snake thousands of years prior.

Not at all different than most accusations today, charismatic liar/magician with powers attributed to deceive multitudes (even down through the ages.)

Bingo

Or something else altogether.

Here comes the proselytizing, injection of personal beliefs and assertive claims

And has also, is also "troubling the world".

(We are quite close...for those who have not yet known it, or been able to receive it...that His words and preaching in truth have never been compatible with the world and again His word and preaching will be broadly criminalized...for the spiritually dense who have some how thought the world has become a more "enlightened" place.)

The witness of Christ who bears His testimony has always known this. Some have been awakened to it, while others still slumber. The time of light is appointed to each as it is ordained.

But, if taking (as I do take) the truth that some have always said He is a liar, a deceiver, a leader astray and even sorcerer, none of that makes the case that he must have been (in His time) a good and simple (as a Jew of authority in that time would appraise) Torah believing teacher and preacher. It only supports that to some who had the power to do so, He was rejected as any such thing. Leveling accusations and acted upon by which they found Him worthy of death for them.

Yes, Jesus Christ is/was and remains public enemy #1 to the status quo.

But to the some who have been made able to receive their righteous judgment as criminal and treacherous to their Maker He's more than good friend...a Savior...who has graciously included them in His death to, and for, sin.

Yep, I believe the Jesus that says and said this to some of those Jews, no longer ignorant nor naive of how provocational [sic] it is:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Yes, that man meets each and every man (whether Jew or not) with the same testimony...everything you may think is a something in and of itself is nothing but about me. Yes, even all of resistance.

How can that not be an offense to men who believe they can choose to attach significance where they will? And count as of so little significance...the One about whom all creation is centered.

It's like every Arnold Schwarzenegger movie ever, you know the same lines will be repeated at some point.

(yep Bullet...even ballistic tables, the physics is all of Him)

Usual off tangent run trying to connect the real with the metaphysical just like your favorite anonymous authors

And as to Jesus Christ's relationship to Torah I hold no doubt as He embraced it as the only man ever to...in truth.

You and Ehrman

 

[Israel]

I too well understand that what seems anonymous to you, is not.

Sometimes a man doesn't even know himself, but that does not mean he never will.

There's a far better precursor to the gospels written by a Jew.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[bullethead]

I too well understand that what seems anonymous to you, is not.

Sometimes a man doesn't even know himself, but that does not mean he never will.

There's a far better precursor to the gospels written by a Jew.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Oyyyy

 

[Spotlite]

It's like every Arnold Schwarzenegger movie

 

[ky55]

 

[Israel]

The believer either already concedes to revelation as source of truth for the writings or he is only a believer in word (OR he has not yet considered things too obvious to overlook.) He has not yet had his faith tested in this area.

This is the believe part of his being a believer...that all truth comes only by revelation and that the truth in, and of Jesus Christ, is the fullness of all truth to man. Why would it be a "new" thing to consider that some time as distance in experience would diminish the truth of matters?

And of course he (the believer) concedes he walks in a place and ways unknown to what does not believe, or perhaps...does not yet believe.

When a man reads of Jesus in the garden or Jesus' temptations in the wilderness the ground is already set to faith...no matter if such were written a day, a week, a year or 20, 100, after (or 10 minutes for that matter)...it is plain (as far as the presence of an earthly recorder being there...) that Jesus is alone. Who "overheard" his conversation with the woman at the well? Who saw? Heard?

Does the believer imagine (must he?) that Jesus later said "lemme tell you all exactly what happened and what was said..." (There surely is a brief window for this between the garden and His crucifixion). He can, or might imagine this to be the truth of it...but does the believer think he sees Jesus saying to His disciples (so there be a full recording and no error)

"First I said 'Father if it be thy will let this cup pass'...and then I wept a bit more and said..."?

The very faith that I have learned as gift to me is also the very faith that tells me Jesus does not have any interest in throwing open his "closet door" of prayer, no self interest in making a display of Himself...and fully trusts only in His Father to make Him known...even such workings interior (in Christ) that take place. He is quite bold (and content) in all parts (if they can be divided) of this saying:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Of course this is far too strange a place for the unbeliever to tread, the reasoning seems too circular, too infantile, even perhaps too grandiose. But the believer is learning all true reason is circular in nature...leading back (and also forward!) to God, source of all reason...and of all reasons for anything in the creation.

But this is Christ's great promise (too grandiose?) to bring us to the Father, safely, and in (His) person. Even inclusive to whatever moment of truth this is made known:

"I will show you whom you should fear..."

This bringing to, this showing in the person of Christ is fearful! All of man's reasons and reasonings are shown folly, corrupt...all prior "standing" removed...intellect, education, religious practice, so called goodness, seeming acts of piety meaning no more than most depraved undertakings. Everything cut away...but the Christ of God.

But this is where the surety of Christ is alone made sure. There is no "other" way...fearful as it may be in experience. And it is fearful in experience. But there...promise also holds sure...and even especially there. Confirmed.

To think Jesus Christ Himself did not experience this is folly. Even entrance into the passing pains of that circular reasoning in which all other must be abandoned that might seem proffered way of escape.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

In short, "I am here precisely for this". To be abandoned, rejected, raised to scorn and debased in the sight of man to all casual disregard. Just "another" criminal. Another man who went "too far". "Since I am here for this, what would be working toward any desire that I escape this?"

It was settled there the evil one "had no place in Him" and there would be not much speaking after this. Now was the time of execution...of doing. Miracles would not suffice here for testimony; words, teachings, parables, instructions, commandments (as fine and true as ever they were) were not offered here...for this was now the time and place of their securing in truth, and as truth...where push came to shove, put up or shut up, put your money where your mouth is (but the something that makes money worthless was truly "put up")...this was where their establishment as spoken by the true man, would be secured, signed so to speak, in His own blood.

If the case is being made, or is to be made upon "historical facts" that Jesus was the "run of the mill" Jew two thousand years ago, there are myriad other historical facts that argue that name has held some power over the millennia...arguing against (for better or worse, depending upon a perspective) He was anything but run of the mill.

If one cares to take their stand upon the wrings being false, augmented, or amended in some way by cunning men trying to get a "new" religion off the ground...and so full of obvious contradictions, lies, and bias...one would have to also persuasively make the case that if so malleable and easily subject to editing their assembly (in such co called obvious contradiction) was accomplished by the most stupid and blind of all men to not see them, or choose to ignore them (these seeming obvious contradictions)...which contrariwise would be a very poor way to seek to launch some new endeavor.

And if fanciful to some absurd degree (to even claim a man was resurrected)...why not carry such fancy to its fullest course...have Jesus laughing and dancing up the hill singing "you can't keep me down cause I am the Messiah" rather than show a man in so many "outward ways" appearing much as any other...even with loud cries and tears in a garden considering what was facing Him? Stumbling up the hill. Even made to ask that "if it were possible"...to be avoided. Yes, why not give Him x-ray eyes to boot?

What any man does with the writings in his relationship to them, or even as to any believing in what he thinks is a right relation to them I find succinctly stated by Christ Himself:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


The plea that they may appear too contradictory, too unstable, too fanciful and insubstantial...even too infantile for such grand intellects to find valuable...are really the same accusations so often found leveled at Christ and His followers. But, of course!

Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

A man has come who, in loving us, nevertheless has hated perfectly what men do of concupiscence...while showing He has no part with it, has yet given His life a ransom for many.

Yes, who can believe that?

Not without His Father's testimony of Him.

And every man is following some father's son.

 

[bullethead]

The believer either already concedes to revelation as source of truth for the writings or he is only a believer in word (OR he has not yet considered things too obvious to overlook.) He has not yet had his faith tested in this area.

This is the believe part of his being a believer...that all truth comes only by revelation and that the truth in, and of Jesus Christ, is the fullness of all truth to man. Why would it be a "new" thing to consider that some time as distance in experience would diminish the truth of matters?

And of course he (the believer) concedes he walks in a place and ways unknown to what does not believe, or perhaps...does not yet believe.

When a man reads of Jesus in the garden or Jesus' temptations in the wilderness the ground is already set to faith...no matter if such were written a day, a week, a year or 20, 100, after (or 10 minutes for that matter)...it is plain (as far as the presence of an earthly recorder being there...) that Jesus is alone. Who "overheard" his conversation with the woman at the well? Who saw? Heard?

Does the believer imagine (must he?) that Jesus later said "lemme tell you all exactly what happened and what was said..." (There surely is a brief window for this between the garden and His crucifixion). He can, or might imagine this to be the truth of it...but does the believer think he sees Jesus saying to His disciples (so there be a full recording and no error)

"First I said 'Father if it be thy will let this cup pass'...and then I wept a bit more and said..."?

The very faith that I have learned as gift to me is also the very faith that tells me Jesus does not have any interest in throwing open his "closet door" of prayer, no self interest in making a display of Himself...and fully trusts only in His Father to make Him known...even such workings interior (in Christ) that take place. He is quite bold (and content) in all parts (if they can be divided) of this saying:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Of course this is far too strange a place for the unbeliever to tread, the reasoning seems too circular, too infantile, even perhaps too grandiose. But the believer is learning all true reason is circular in nature...leading back (and also forward!) to God, source of all reason...and of all reasons for anything in the creation.

But this is Christ's great promise (too grandiose?) to bring us to the Father, safely, and in (His) person. Even inclusive to whatever moment of truth this is made known:

"I will show you whom you should fear..."

This bringing to, this showing in the person of Christ is fearful! All of man's reasons and reasonings are shown folly, corrupt...all prior "standing" removed...intellect, education, religious practice, so called goodness, seeming acts of piety meaning no more than most depraved undertakings. Everything cut away...but the Christ of God.

But this is where the surety of Christ is alone made sure. There is no "other" way...fearful as it may be in experience. And it is fearful in experience. But there...promise also holds sure...and even especially there. Confirmed.

To think Jesus Christ Himself did not experience this is folly. Even entrance into the passing pains of that circular reasoning in which all other must be abandoned that might seem proffered way of escape.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

In short, "I am here precisely for this". To be abandoned, rejected, raised to scorn and debased in the sight of man to all casual disregard. Just "another" criminal. Another man who went "too far". "Since I am here for this, what would be working toward any desire that I escape this?"

It was settled there the evil one "had no place in Him" and there would be not much speaking after this. Now was the time of execution...of doing. Miracles would not suffice here for testimony; words, teachings, parables, instructions, commandments (as fine and true as ever they were) were not offered here...for this was now the time and place of their securing in truth, and as truth...where push came to shove, put up or shut up, put your money where your mouth is (but the something that makes money worthless was truly "put up")...this was where their establishment as spoken by the true man, would be secured, signed so to speak, in His own blood.

If the case is being made, or is to be made upon "historical facts" that Jesus was the "run of the mill" Jew two thousand years ago, there are myriad other historical facts that argue that name has held some power over the millennia...arguing against (for better or worse, depending upon a perspective) He was anything but run of the mill.

If one cares to take their stand upon the wrings being false, augmented, or amended in some way by cunning men trying to get a "new" religion off the ground...and so full of obvious contradictions, lies, and bias...one would have to also persuasively make the case that if so malleable and easily subject to editing their assembly (in such co called obvious contradiction) was accomplished by the most stupid and blind of all men to not see them, or choose to ignore them (these seeming obvious contradictions)...which contrariwise would be a very poor way to seek to launch some new endeavor.

And if fanciful to some absurd degree (to even claim a man was resurrected)...why not carry such fancy to its fullest course...have Jesus laughing and dancing up the hill singing "you can't keep me down cause I am the Messiah" rather than show a man in so many "outward ways" appearing much as any other...even with loud cries and tears in a garden considering what was facing Him? Stumbling up the hill. Even made to ask that "if it were possible"...to be avoided. Yes, why not give Him x-ray eyes to boot?

What any man does with the writings in his relationship to them, or even as to any believing in what he thinks is a right relation to them I find succinctly stated by Christ Himself:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


The plea that they may appear too contradictory, too unstable, too fanciful and insubstantial...even too infantile for such grand intellects to find valuable...are really the same accusations so often found leveled at Christ and His followers. But, of course!

Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

A man has come who, in loving us, nevertheless has hated perfectly what men do of concupiscence...while showing He has no part with it, has yet given His life a ransom for many.

Yes, who can believe that?

Not without His Father's testimony of Him.

And every man is following some father's son.

Ehrman, not sermon.

 

[Israel]

What is Ehrman to be found so worthy of consideration? Except another late 20th early 21st Century vapor making a living off the name of Jesus Christ? Perhaps not as profitably as the many religious hucksters also merchandising on that name, but not without some success.

The buyers and sellers in the Temple have always had their day, that is sure.
But what will they do in the end?
Except discover as all who even now seek to follow Him, nothing is, or even has been...as it seemed. It could be profitable to learn that of Him, now. Each will be spent, and is being spent upon their esteem of value.

I am sure Bart's father is or was no better nor worse a man than I am, I just don't much invest myself in his son; for at best, his son has nothing invested in me except a hope to buy his opinions and books. There are far more than enough of those who claim Jesus is the Christ of God that I am too happy to shun, how much less is esteemed what denies.

Call me narrow minded.

But don't think such compliments will endear you to me more than you already are.

 

[bullethead]

What is Ehrman to be found so worthy of consideration? Except another late 20th early 21st Century vapor making a living off the name of Jesus Christ? Perhaps not as profitably as the many religious hucksters also merchandising on that name, but not without some success.

The buyers and sellers in the Temple have always had their day, that is sure.
But what will they do in the end?
Except discover as all who even now seek to follow Him, nothing is, or even has been...as it seemed. It could be profitable to learn that of Him, now. Each will be spent, and is being spent upon their esteem of value.

I am sure Bart's father is or was no better nor worse a man than I am, I just don't much invest myself in his son; for at best, his son has nothing invested in me except a hope to buy his opinions and books. There are far more than enough of those who claim Jesus is the Christ of God that I am too happy to shun, how much less is esteemed what denies.

Call me narrow minded.

But don't think such compliments will endear you to me more than you already are.

Bart isn't doing anything you are not doing except it is his profession.
Ehrman's book about Jesus's beliefs is what the thread is about. Everyone knows your beliefs, claims, assertive statements and sermon-esqe posts as they take up the overwhelming majority of your input into threads. None of which are a bad thing but if any of it has anything to do with what us others have been talking about I'll be darned if I can find it in there. Too much fluff. It would be endearing to see more on point discussion, refutation, point/counterpoint and examples that focus on the topic. If it takes a while to explain I can gladly read through it, when the opening paragraph or 6 have nothing to do with the topic at hand and instead are meant to sway the conversation away from it, I have learned to focus my attention elsewhere.
Narrow minded is more like One Track.
In this attempt you are trying to shoot the messenger instead of refuting the content. Bringing Ehrman's dad into it....for What?

 

[Israel]

In this attempt you are trying to shoot the messenger instead of refuting the content. Bringing Ehrman's dad into it....for What?

Cause everyone is following some father's son in agreements.

(And don't overdo the compliments in calling me one track...I get too easily distracted as it is; flattery has always been one of my more obvious weaknesses)

 

[gemcgrew]

Cause everyone is following some father's son in agreements.

And none of us get to choose what we believe. Every one of us believes according to what bears the most pressure upon our mind.

 

[bullethead]

Experimental Robot ant farm just going by the script. Sure why not.

 

[Spotlite]

And none of us get to choose what we believe. Every one of us believes according to what bears the most pressure upon our mind.

I’m not sure I’m completely understanding this, it’s almost placing a fine line between “spiritual / non-spiritual” peer pressure and brain washing, or possibly combining the two.

Can you elaborate on how your statement resulted in someone like Ehrman and myself to have completely opposite views of Jesus - neither of us having a choice?

I’m thinking of John 20 and “Doubting Thomas”.

 

[Israel]

Experimental Robot ant farm just going by the script. Sure why not.

How does one escape purpose?

Can one?

 

[Spotlite]

How does one escape purpose?

Can one?

“Choose you this day”

Humbling yourself under God’s will is the same as choosing to believe in God’s care?

Because of the continued rebellion against God - it repented the Lord he even made man. Was that purposed?