bow vs. crossbow

[HT2]

HighCountry......

Hey bud......

I was of the same mindset as you, with concerns to the crossbow when they first came out.......I was so against them it wasn't funny......

However......

You may be right in some sense........I guess the reason I hunt with one now is that first of all......"I LIKE IT"!!!!!!!!Easier, Faster, and more accurate "IMO"........It's really that simple.......I don't think the size of a "MAN" is measured on whether he draws back his "Bow" to shoot at that moment, or he draws his crossbow to cock it and then shoots later.......It's a preference just like everything.......As long as it's huntin'.......I'm good with it.......You never know......There more than likely were "hunters" that didn't "BOW HUNT" at all.....Now, with the addition of "CROSSBOWS"......We may have gotten some people in the woods that were never there until Rifle Season.......Good thing????? Bad thing????? You decide.....

As for the scopes on muzzleloaders.......

I got no idea......I've been tryin' to figure out the difference between a scope on a crossbow and a muzzleloader for a few years now.......
It's all about "POLITICS"!!!!!!!! : :

 

[TOW]

Reylamb -"The real debate is whether or not a crossbow is an archery device. Since none of the major international archery organizations recognize crossbows as archery devices, the decision is clear at least to me."

Correction - There are many, many BOWHUNTING groups that don't call crossbows archery. Why? To protect their own little playground.

In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, they are archery equipment.

Only in the United States do you get some bowhunting organizations that don't think that. Of course they are "protecting their own".

THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for several years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old.

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment.

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s or ****s and see where the crossbows are kept.

Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising.

Now with compound bows - The International Olympic Committee doesn't recognize compounds as archery equipment. The PAN AMERICAN games don't recognize compounds as archery equipment. Neither does some of those ultra elitist, head up the butt traditional groups like Comptons.

Why have crossbows been welcomed at NAA sanctioned shoots many years longer then the compound bow? Hmm?

Several European countries don’t recognize any archery gear for hunting purpose. Thanks to bowhunters in England that complained that the crossbows were “inhumane” After a government study they ended up banning all archery hunting as “inhumane”.

I don't think we want to head down that path..

A crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is VERY similar. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that you can shoot. It kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss.

Sounds like archery to me.

BTW - The Cape Buffalo was killed by Bill Troubridge co-owner of Excalibur crossbows. I could only hope to do that..

 

[GeauxLSU]

I just don't get it....

A weapon is an archery tool when the archer draws and holds the weight of the string at full draw. Even with a mechanical release the archer still holds the weight at full draw, with a crossbow that is not the case.

Rey,
What percentage of the weight do they have to hold? All of it? Most of it? Half of it? 10% of it enough?
To those against it, I'll freely admit I'm not a bowhunter and said I never would be (for many reasons, none of which involve 'laziness'), but the fact that crossbows are legal in Georgia has me SERIOUSLY considering getting into it. Maybe that's a bad thing to have another hunter in the woods?
I'm sure I don't "get it" because this debate seem humurous to me. I've tried to draw an analogy in my mind to what other weapon they could introduce into rifle season (that would be comparable to the xbow/compound bow comparison) that would get me bent about people using one and I can't.
It makes the weapon easier to FIRE, PERIOD. It doesn't double it's range, it doesn't draw deer in closer, it doesn't have exploding tiped arrows, it doesn't do ANYTHING but make firing the weapon easier. Unless the big issue is that one second you are more exposed when you have to draw your compound bow after seeing an animal? Or are you annoyed/jealous that you had to spend more time learning to become proficient with a long/recurve/compound bow that someone will have to invest in learning to shoot a xbow? (Not sure if that's even true but I'm assuming.)
Not sure how they could make pulling the trigger on a rifle or holding one any easier but if they did, GOOD! It might result in some more humane kills.
What is the big deal? I mean really? Somebody help me out please. :
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil

 

[Al33]

Humane kills?

What's up with this thought from so many? :

I see it used in so many ways to justify a myriad of opinions regarding hunting issues, the least of which, are weapons. OH, but the crossbow is likely to provide a more humane kill than ___________. A socpe on a ML will make for more humane kills. And the list goes on.

Heck fire, why don't we all just start shooting arrows, bolts, or spears out of our weapons tipped with syringes full of something lethal that will just cause our game to lie down and go to sleep forever. Good grief folks, I hate to see an animal suffer, but that happens in hunting when something has to die. Are we going to eventually justify a weapon for it's humane killing reasons alone and eliminate the weapons that do not adhere to a certain set of humane standards? Does anyone else see where this could go?

I could say I wanted to hunt with a 105 mm Howitzer and argue the deer would never know what hit him. I would never risk loosing an animal like one might with a bow and arrow. You wouldn't see any deer running around with a huge projectile hanging out of their back leg.

Hunting is killing, you can't get around that, and with killing, there is often going to be things that are not "humane". So please, spare me this reasoning for your weapons choices, scopes, or anything else you want to justify.

I'm done,

Al33

 

[reylamb]

1. Let me say this, more hunters in the woods is never a bad thing. The more hunters we have the stronger our voice.

2. Crossbows did not introduce new hunters, contrary to what the crossbow lobby says. It did bring hunters into archery season that never had a desire to otherwise, but they were still hunting prior to the legislation change. There were not people that were non-hunters saying, man if they would just legalize crossbows I would hunt. Sorry, did not happen.

3. Jealous? Hardly the case at all.

4. If they had only been legalized for primitive weapons season and general hunting season how many people would have rushed out and bought them? Hardly anyone. Why? Most hunters want the easiest possible way to kill a deer. Crossbows are harder than flintlocks, flintlocks are harder than inlines, inlines are harder than rifles. We, as a general rule, want what is easier.

5. Sorry, I do not buy any pro-choice arguments.

6. Sorry, it is not an archery device, on this issue TOW and I will never agree, contrary to his numerous posts to the contrary on this and many other sites. Having said that, I would gladly share a camp with him at anytime where crossbows are legal.

7. Purist? Hardly the case at all either. I draw the line, as I said earlier, as to what defines archery equipment. Propelling an arrow does not alone define archery. There is this cute little thing floating around that propels an arrow out of what amounts to a .22. Sorry, once again not archery.

8. How much holding weight do I think still remains archery? I am not sure exactly, but I will tell you this. The 99% letoff Concept archery bow to me is not archery. When a bow can be drawn as soon as entering the stand and hung by the string so that the riser holds the full weight at full draw, that is no longer an archery weapon. Neither is a bow equipped with a Draw Lock, but that is another issue altogether.

9. I am a Bowhunter Education instructor. Many crossbow hunters were at our classes. 75% of them freely admitted that they never had any desire to hunt during the archery season until crossbows were legalized. Reason? It is easy and just like shooting my rifle? Is that what we are striving to achieve, making hunting easier? At what point does it become so easy that it is no longer hunting and just shooting?

10. More humane kills? Weak argument at best. Anyone that takes the time to become proficient with either a compound, longbow, recurve, or crossbow all kill the same way, by bleeding the animal out. Crossbows are no more or less humane, although none of the above are inhumane either.

11. It is easier to become proficient with a crossbow. This is true to some extenet. However, give me someone that has never shot a compound before and I will have them shooting 6 inch groups at 20 yards within a couple of days at most. Good enough to win Vegas? No, but good enough to harvest a deer quickly and efficiently as long as they stay within 20 yards. Now, trad equipment, I have been trying to get the hang of it for a few years now and it just has not clicked. Trust me, the guys that shoot trad archery gear and kill deer have my utmost respect, I can not do it. However, the hardest part of killing a deer with either a compound or trad gear is getting drawn without being seen, not the actual shot. There is very little chance of being seen brawing a crossbow, since there is nothing to draw.

Finally, I say again, unlike some true "purists" I harbor no animosity towards crossbow hunters. Most I would gladly share a camp and woods with at any time. TOW and I do not see eye to eye on this issue and probably never will, yet I would never tell him he can not come to my camp and hunt. Anyone that hunts ethically, and by the way I do not view crossbows as unethical, is welcome to my camp anytime. They will not see any deer, but they are welcome none the less.

 

[TOW]

Reylamb - "2. Crossbows did not introduce new hunters, contrary to what the crossbow lobby says. It did bring hunters into archery season that never had a desire to otherwise, but they were still hunting prior to the legislation change. There were not people that were non-hunters saying, man if they would just legalize crossbows I would hunt. Sorry, did not happen."

TOW - Could we please get off the "crossbow lobby" stuff? If there were any lobbying it is over and done with.

The information I have from Georgia and Alabama is that yes there were some people that NEVER hunted before or had quit hunting and started up again. The total number of bowhunters using a crossbow AND compounds went up the last two years in Georgia. Was that not reversing a trend in bowhunting?

Being an older generation and somewhat physically challenged I can say that some folks would not apply for "handicapped permits" because of the stigma placed on them. Once the crossbow became legal that appearance of a stigma disappeared.

Some of that stigma was vanity and some of it was imposed by bowhunters that question every person on their handicap.

Face it- crossbow legalization has been a winner for hunting in Georgia.

Reylamb - "6. Sorry, it is not an archery device, on this issue TOW and I will never agree, contrary to his numerous posts to the contrary on this and many other sites."

TOW - The difference is I am putting up facts to support my claim. Most archery organizations claim crossbows to be archery equipment. Only when bowhunting groups get involved does that do a switcheroo. Which groups are protecting their turf?

Reylamb -"Having said that, I would gladly share a camp with him at anytime where crossbows are legal."

Tow - Thanks..

"Easier"? Maybe to master, but that doesn't have a thing to do with the hunting part does it? It is still just as tough to get within arrow striking distance of the game we pursue..

BTW - the P & Y recognizes the Concept99 as archery. With an asterisk of course..

 

[GeauxLSU]

Ok then....

Rey,
I'm still confused. You make several comments about what you do NOT have a problem with but could you just please answer the basic question, "what is it then that you DO have a problem with"?
Is it just the term 'archery' that doesn't sit well with you? :
For the record, if I wasn't looking for 'easy'. I wouldn't hunt fair chase, regardless of weapon. Actually, I wouldn't hunt at all. I think you are blurring 'easy' and 'simple'. Easy deals with effort, simple deals with complexity. I like 'simple'. I have an inline ML. Is it 'easier' to harvest a deer at 30 yards with an inline vs a flintlock? It was more simple to load sure, but I don't think one is easier to hunt with than the other. I still had to HUNT the same. You still have to HUNT the same with a xbow and a compound (or most pistols for that matter, which I also enjoy). None of them are 'easy'.
I guess I may have mispoke. I have no idea if xbows brought a single additional hunter in the woods (though I suspect some retired bow hunters have re-entered the woods) but at least for me, it could potentially give me MORE DAYS in the woods. Still a good thing in my book.
Who knows? Maybe I'll buy a xbow and then but a compound, and then a recruve and then a long bow and then a spear. I don't know. All I know is, I love to hunt and anything that has me in the woods looking for critters for one more minute, I'm considering.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil

 

[reylamb]

Phil,
Currently, the early season are archery and primitive weapons, not bow and black powder. In my mind a crossbow is not an archery device. Simply propelling an arrow does not make something an archery weapon. Having to draw it back immediately prior to releasing the string is what, in my mind, differentiates between something that is and is not an archery weapon, that is where I draw the line. As far as that spear, you would be a better man than I even if it was in jest.

Like I said, if it is legal do it. If baiting is legalized, bait. if scopes are allowed on ML, put one on there. However, all of these make things easier, or simpler whatever term one wishes to use. you must admit though, an inline with a rifled barrel is inherintly easier and more accurate than a flintlock. With the inline I see manufacturers advertising about never having to worry about the powder getting wet, an inline is easier.

TOW, simple question. Since crossbows were just liegalized for Alabama this year, how can there be any data on them, their season has not started yet?

P&Y screwed the pooch anyway with their whole * thing anyway.

Some of us still view the addition and entry of the crossbow as a slippery slope for the future of bowhunting. I hear far too many cries of using your weapon of choice. I hear many hunters subscribing to the lowcountry of SC mentality, any weapon all the time. How much longer before someone lobbies to eliminate the archery season alotgether? Rumors are already spreading that some of our Golden domers may be thinking in that light. Scary stuff for bowhunting and the future of it.

Think about it this way. If the law was changed so that only recurves and longbows were allowed in archery season, how many people that are now crossbow hunters would grab the old stick and string? Miniscual. How many compounders would do the same? Probably not many, but a higher percentage than the crossbowers for sure. I for one would hunt with the curve and limit my shots to 15 yards or less, a distance I am at least comfortable with using my recurve.

Like I said, as long as it is legal go for it. I have no problems with crossbow hunters, I just wish they had not been allowed into archery season.

On a very side note, what I find ironic is that many people that support crossbows because they are simpler to use are the same ones that are against high fenced hunting because it is too easy. No need to comment on that one, that is just the rantings of what may possibly be a lunatic??????

 

[reylamb]

Oh, and on a couple of other side notes:
1. TOW, why Spider Man?
2. As a result of my accident this week I am not currently able to hold my bow up, let alone shoot it. The use of a crossbow was offered to me until I can get back into shooting shape. For now, archery season is temporarily over or I deal with the sever pain in my neck and shoulder.

 

[GeauxLSU]

Phil,
1) Currently, the early season are archery and primitive weapons, not bow and black powder. In my mind a crossbow is not an archery device. Simply propelling an arrow does not make something an archery weapon. Having to draw it back immediately prior to releasing the string is what, in my mind, differentiates between something that is and is not an archery weapon, that is where I draw the line.
......
2) On a very side note, what I find ironic is that many people that support crossbows because they are simpler to use are the same ones that are against high fenced hunting because it is too easy. No need to comment on that one, that is just the rantings of what may possibly be a lunatic??????

1) Ok. So it's the term and the fact that they are allowed during archery season. Simple enough, thanks.
2) I'm one of those ironic lunatics I guess. Call me crazy (oops you already did ), but again, it's not about 'easy'. You are once again confusing a weapon with an activity. HUNTING is an activity. A crossbow is a WEAPON. Shooting an animal in an enclsoure is not hunting (IMHO). (I realize that sentence is the crux of the debate.) It most certainly is shooting, which is also an 'activity' that can be done with any variety of weapons.
HUNTING a free range animal with a crossbow is still HUNTING (call it archery or whatever you want, it's still hunting) regardless of that weapon.
The two 'debates' are completely unrelated.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil

 

[TOW]

Reylamb - "TOW, simple question. Since crossbows were just legalized for Alabama this year, how can there be any data on them, their season has not started yet?"

TOW - Nothing concrete. Purely anecdotal evidence from magazine and newspaper articles stating that old timers are getting back into archery hunting after years of sitting at home.

Reylamb -"P&Y screwed the pooch anyway with their whole * thing anyway."

TOW - I agree. More division among the ranks of hunters. The hunt is still tough no matter if one is shooting a 65 or a 65+ let off.

Spiderman? I like Spiderman. I used to watch it on TV with my son when he was growing up.

I'll probably put Calvin and Hobbs back up soon. They were my favorite cartoon of all times.

Sorry to hear about your accident. By all means use the crossbow if available. You will still be deer hunting and I think you'll find it not a whole lot different from what you have done in the past. You'll be setting up on bucks like always, shooting them at the same distances and they'll be busting you like they always have. Executing the shot will be somewhat different, but not a lot.

You will find that shooting behind the stand is a lot tougher with a crossbow. The horizontal limbs/string has a major conflict with the vertical tree that you will be in. You need to set your stand accordingly.

I'm in the process of recovering from a double hernia operation last Friday. It might mean I do a lot of ground blind hunting the first few weeks of season.

I've got a "Crankeroo" ( crank type cocker ) coming on loan from an Excalibur forum member. That way I don't have to have someone cock it for me - practice or hunting. I wasn't going to allow a little thing like a hole in my side keep me out of the woods..

So don't let an accident keep you out of the woods. Every day lost to not hunting can never be regained...it's just gone..

 

[Walkie Takie]

good/ bad ???

well hear we go//// don't use one , but maybe one day still have old martin,
new crossbows are nice and fast , lot's of new hunter' in the wood's because of them , good for the sport ( don't know yet ) just hope they don't take long-longer shot's and wound deer and then can't track them ///// w/t

 

[kcausey]

Well...

i didnt go to the trouble of reading all 6 pages of this post, so please excuse anything i cover that has been covered.

High Country, you are probably a pretty knowledgeable archer if you primarily hunt with a bow. that being said, you need to find some kinetic energy formulas. you will find that my set up...70lbs with 65% let off and a 295 grain arrow @ 312fps is within a few ft/lbs of the narliest set up for big game. excluding one's like Fred Bear's 150lbs long bow with lord knows how heavy of an arrow. This kinetic energy deal has been worn out in the archery thread for years. as far as a crossbow goes....i was against them at first as well...until i realized i can shoot just as well if not better than anyone i have seen with a crossbow at up to 40 yards. a 1.5x scope aint gonna hurt or help any of us. My father just bought a new Excalibur that shoots 350fps. That 1.5x scope he has on it isn't gonna fool him at any amout of yardage...cause im sure he hunts with his eyes instead of lookin through that scope all day at everything. He bought that $750 set up so he can enjoy bow season more with his son. He can now shoot the crossbow until he can't hunt anymore. That old PSE was taking a toll on him and he was tired of it. He could have went and gotten a bow with high let off that would be good for him for 5 years....then he'd have to get a crossbow anyway at 65 because that compound hurts him.

Besides all of this....that excalibur will put more of a hurting on a target or animal at any distance than ANY compound bow you or i can imagine.

 

[kcausey]

Law

The law says crossbow's are now legal to hunt with during archery season. The law says a lot of things i don't agree with........let's all GET OVER IT and hunt

 

[reylamb]

Phil,

There was a typo in that respone, "that is just the rantings of what may possibly be a lunatic" should have read "THIS" is just the rantings of what may possibly be a lunatic.

 

[HT2]

Fellers.....

Good Debate!!!!!!!!!

Ya'll are full of good info. and personal preference........

 

[Bucky T]

I finally got finished reading all this!!!

I was in the same mindset as you were HT2 when crossbows were legalized.

My "fear" was that my beloved empty woods were going to be over run with with gun hunters wanting an early jump on the season. I was PO'd, but I was a little younger and "more" ignorant then.

I personally love to bowhunt. I wouldn't hunt with a crossbow unless I physically couldn't pull a 45lb bow back!!!

I don't give a you know what now. The woods were never over run and now I just say "to each there own". I know how I like to hunt and that's all I care about.

Tommy

 

[GeauxLSU]

Too crowded...

... I was wondering if that was going to come up.
My club has 1,000 acres and 10 members. Opening morning was me and the president and I don't even bow hunt! Never been on a club that on ANY day, on any season, had more than a 50% turn out. Generally about 25%.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil

 

[reylamb]

As far as overcrowding, for bohunting I personally feel it is tough to overcrowd. I have hunted 75 yards from either family or friends and there have been deer that passed by one of us that the others did not see. For rifle hunting, there are other considerations such as safety for hunting too close together. But for bowhunting, there is not much better than watching someone else double lung a deer from a few yards away from your stand.

 

[coolbreezeroho]

My Excalibur is a recurve crossbow. I restring it each season. Its good out to 40 yards max. I also have to practice with it and pick out the best bolts and broadheads. Its one shot.

My Fred Bear vapor 300 I can shoot 4 arrows 20-40 yards and be on target before I could recock my crossbow.......Now which one has the advantage over which....