(Minor Vent) Problems with staff at job

[Waddams]

I'm a civil/water/sewer engineer and senior PM. I've been doing this 25 years. Everything from little small grading jobs right up to massive 200 MGD+ pump stations and treatment plants for big cities. I've done a whole bunch of pipeline/linear utility design, I've done some roadway engineering....and I also have led large multi disciplinary teams through big projects. I like to tell people when they ask me what I do that make smart people with poor social skills talk to each other, AKA engineering management.

These days, I've currently got 15 active projects. It's literally 100k LF of pipe, some big other heavy civil projects, etc. Combined probably well over $200M of construction value. I have exactly ONE other engineer in the office and ONE drafter. The company has 5 others in other offices that are assigned to help out some. Only one of them has more than 3 years of experience. The rest are greener than green. And the one that has a little more experience is very passive. Doesn't do any little detail unless you micromanage him to do it. We have 4 projects in construction and NO construction manager type support.

Our industry is so hit by "brain drain" that there literally just aren't people to do the work and have the experience to know how. There's only one of me and I'm drowning trying to keep what doesn't even qualify as a skeleton crew keeping things moving. I don't think we have the experience and capability for the our staff to keep the company meeting expectations. Not even close. I can't do it all myself, I can't tell everyone every keystroke to push, button to hit, and action to take.

Our HR recruiting specialist is best described as "head full of cotton candy". She's the worst "recruiter" I've ever seen. She's nevr identified one single candidate. And she can't even get us signed up for a job fare at a university to get in front of new grads. She can't take a position posted on the company website and advertise it on any other site like Indeed, LinkedIn, etc. We have spots open, nobody applies because she can't get them advertised wider in front of people.

We're failing here because we just don't have the horses to run the race we're in and it's killing me. I've never experienced anything like this at all. The company leadership says a lot but isn't acting. I've been with the company almost 3 years. We're working for clients I've known for almost 20. I've got a good enough rep and relationship with the clients personally that when I honestly tell them the problems are attrition and lack of people/skill sets, they get it, they see it in our competition too, but it's still not good.

I've always done good work. I've always been able to get teams to perform when I had enough butts in seats. I'm at my wits end right now because I can't manage a team when there isn't a team to manage. I'm not gonna quit, I can't leave clients I've got long term personal relationships with hanging. I'm gonna get through this and get this work load done one way or another. However, when we're over the hump, if we haven't found a way to recruit some people, even green new grads I can train, I think I need to find a way out.

 

[Doboy Dawg]

Why not open your own company? It sounds like you have the KSA’s.

 

[basstrkr]

Blue Water Recruiting

 

[Redbow]

Good luck to you sir.

 

[Waddams]

Why not open your own company? It sounds like you have the KSA’s.

I've thought about it. The problem is I'm straight, male, white, and protestant. My experience is all in public infrastructure. Our clients are all government entities. I'm the wrong ethnicity for small company success in the MetroATL area to put it bluntly.

I'm really more thinking about how to make a big career switch. Almost done with child support for my son, no debt, could easily afford a pay cut. Am wondering what else I could do to transition to something else. The problem is I enjoy what I do once the work is done and it's built and working. There's a major satisfaction to that. I find I also really enjoy the mentoring part with younger staff. I've got a few that are going to be really good if I can ever get the time freed up to invest in them.

When I think about another company - every company I could go to has some talent issue. I'm not solving this issue by going somewhere else. I either build my way out of it where I'm at, or I switch fields completely if I can figure out something to switch to.

Companies forgot how to retain people and now it’s Christmas in the job market.
Anyone not realizing the older candidates are where the success is sitting are going to fail. The new HR folks thought 50 was too old, but they are learning in this market.

Ain't that the truth. I'd kill for an experienced, grizzled, 50 year old vet in our field right now. I just reviewed copies of a bunch of competitor proposals for a contract we were awarded. At least locally, most of them didn't have people. And everyone they did show looked to be retirement age or more. No other group really showed people in the 5, 10, 15, 20 year experience range, at least locally. They just aren't out there.

Back in 2008 when the economy burst, the spending on projects almost stopped completely. Our field lost people hand over fist. They got laid off, there was no work anywhere for them to get hired with new companies, so a great many switched fields. They are now well settled and not coming back. The last few years, work load and spending has really picked up. And our field is left with very few people that have the experience to do the work because of prior attrition, early retirement, and nobody new coming in as new grads. The very few that did last through it didn't grow because there wasn't much work to do so they could grow doing it.

I'm paid like a prince because I'm now a unicorn in our industry. But without enough butts in seats to even mentor and train, it's been very very hard.

As for recruiting firms - we've got two working with us. They've not dug anyone up either. I literally had one send me a retired police chief. Position requires an engineering degree and licensure. I'm sure that guy was a great guy. But without licensure, he can't practice. He could work under a licensed engineer, but he'd have to be taught everything from college freshman level up. I don't think he applied for a job with us. The recruiter just said "oh, I have this resume sitting here" and sent it over.

I've come down to if I'm gonna improve this, I have to figure out how to go meet a few 2-3 year people from other firms and steal them. If I could find someone at 6-7 years that would be awesome but I'm not expecting it. If I can find an older technical design guy willing to make a switch, I'd squeal like a 10 year old girl laughing at the Spice Girls, but again, I'm not expecting it.

Between new grads and cherry picking young'uns from others, I'm just gonna have to go find them myself, hire them, and mentor the staff into a team.

We've got a bunch of subconsultants we use for surveying, utility mapping, soils work, environmental stuff. Those guys have all completely let us down as well. Very bad quality, some things just outright way wrong, and very late. And it's multiple firms.

When literally nobody around you performs, what do you do?

Done venting. Ugh.

 

[Keebs]

Does any technical colleges teach this? We have Wiregrass locally and when they leave whatever field they are in, they're guaranteed a job............ just wondering, I know you must be frustrated!

 

[ghadarits]

I hate to be the one to say this but this is a problem across all industries right now. I'm in telecom and we're struggling to get material and even more so to find qualified people willing to come to work and perform.
This is the whiteboard in my office and the top left is what I need. If you're smart on top of that then we have a real winner.
I've been one of several PMs on some 900 million plus projects but those weren't civil type projects. Stadiums and arenas are my biggest construction jobs. I'll come to work for you but you have to know its the perspective employees who holds the cards right now.

 

[ghadarits]

Does any technical colleges teach this? We have Wiregrass locally and when they leave whatever field they are in, they're guaranteed a job............ just wondering, I know you must be frustrated!

I just finished a project there with Allstate Construction.

 

[dwhee87]

Ain't that the truth. I'd kill for an experienced, grizzled, 50 year old vet in our field right now. I just reviewed copies of a bunch of competitor proposals for a contract we were awarded. At least locally, most of them didn't have people. And everyone they did show looked to be retirement age or more. No other group really showed people in the 5, 10, 15, 20 year experience range, at least locally. They just aren't out there.

I've come down to if I'm gonna improve this, I have to figure out how to go meet a few 2-3 year people from other firms and steal them. If I could find someone at 6-7 years that would be awesome but I'm not expecting it. If I can find an older technical design guy willing to make a switch, I'd squeal like a 10 year old girl laughing at the Spice Girls, but again, I'm not expecting it.

Between new grads and cherry picking young'uns from others, I'm just gonna have to go find them myself, hire them, and mentor the staff into a team.

Do you participate in any trade groups? Those are great places to network and find talent. I work for an engineering firm, and we see the same tough labor market. Fortunately, our recruiting team has figured out the college recruiting game, but even with that, we've had to expand outside of our geographical footprint to find talent. Right now, I think our demographics are 50% of our staff have less than 3 years experience, making the old guys like you and me valuable for mentoring and training the next generation......so we at least have that going for us.

 

[Doboy Dawg]

Probably one of the biggest challenges, I know it would be for me would be for me anyway, would be living anywhere in, around, or near Atlanta and it’s cancerous urban growth.

I managed to escape that Rat Race when I left Jacksonville, Florida in 1985. I vowed never to return to it to live and I didn’t. I love my rural S Ga. home.

I found peace and a slower pace in rural towns. It’s ironic all the kids in my extended family that grew up on farms, fled to the cities. All the kids that grew up in the cities fled to the farms. Now that most of the ones that fled to the cities are trying to get back out.

 

[hopper]

Sounds like one of those grit your teeth and trudge the bumpy path to the finish line moments. We all gotta work with what we got. I'm in the finish end type construction industry for 29 yrs. It seems like good help just doesn't exist even at $200 a day. Mostly it's just 3 off us doing a 6 man job. I gave up bigger projects in Atlanta 4 yrs ago and couldn't be more happy about that decision.
My long time work partner that passed a few months ago when ever I would say "we can't get all this done in time" would look at me and say what's that got to do with anything ? Don't know how many times I was ready to throw in the towel he'd just say Suck It Up!!!

 

[Waddams]

Does any technical colleges teach this?

I actually did manage to find the one CAD drafter we have from a local tech college. She was just graduating, had interned somewhere else, and we paid her better to get her. She's really got talent, and in 6 months, I've trained her up decent. I'm not having to fight off other people in the company to keep her on my projects.

Do you participate in any trade groups?

We troll professional societies like ASCE, GAWP, etc. I've not been active for the company yet in approaching people. The people we've had doing that - they aren't good at it. And they don't follow up. They haven't caught on that you don't go start to talk to a potential person at the formal functions and luncheon's. You keep a copy of the program with their name, introduce yourself at the function, give them a card, and reach out later. That way you're not making them uncomfortable out in front of their co-workers, bosses, clients, etc.

I met a guy at our July annual conference - 7 months later and he's finally gonna be starting 2nd week in February.

I hate to be the one to say this but this is a problem across all industries right now. I'm in telecom and we're struggling to get material and even more so to find qualified people willing to come to work and perform.

Most definitely. There's a severe shortage of people with the experience and technical skills to keep our basic infrastructure operating. It's honestly really scarey. At some point, the system is gonna fail due to this skills gap. Then we're gonna have some place that has an extended water outage county wide, or power, or telecom, etc. I see stuff heading for construction everyday due to pressure from owners - things that aren't vetted and checked right. Things that could cause the equivalent of another I-85 bridge outage like a few years ago when the fire knocked that section down.

My projects are all way behind design schedule because I won't cut corners. And I'm getting a lot of pressure from owners and clients to speed them up. My company, so far, is supportive of my approach to make sure it's right.

I found peace and a slower pace in rural towns. It’s ironic all the kids in my extended family that grew up on farms, fled to the cities. All the kids that grew up in the cities fled to the farms. Now that most of the ones that fled to the cities are trying to get back out.

I would LOVE a relocation to a smaller town at this point. My wife - I don't think she's there yet. The idea is growing on her though. I live 5 mins from my ex-wife, my son is 17. He's still a minor but not for much longer. At the moment, it's convenient to stay where we are, and it works well for her and my job currently.

But moving to a slower paced life style is definitely in the back of my mind.

Sounds like one of those grit your teeth and trudge the bumpy path to the finish line moments. We all gotta work with what we got.

Yeah, at the moment there isn't a solution other than suck it and keep riding the struggle bus.

 

[ryork]

What the OP described sums up a significant part of my reasoning to go into business for myself years ago, and the same reasoning applied again when I decided to sell that business in 2021. We're in similar fields, I'm a geologist by trade and my business employed scientist, engineering, technical type folks. Waddam, folks like you and me are dinosaurs. I'm so thankful I'm on the back end of my career and not starting out. It's just going to get worse. Take it from someone who pushed themselves to the brink, and almost literally over it, do what you got to do be happy and healthy.

 

[Meriwether Mike]

The new recently graduated CAD techs expect a large hourly rate and cannot remember trained tasks from day to day. The last two I hired either quit after six months because the work was not fun or I helped them to quit by showing them the door. The younger generation does not stay on any job more than 3 to 6 months. Hire the more seasoned workers and they at least show up.

 

[Lindseys Grandpa]

The lack of skills and desire to work is gonna be one of the factors that is going to lead to the end of this country . The youth of today which are fixing to enter the work force are not in my opinion capable of pushing us forward .
Another problem is a generation that is being taught to hate their country and what it stand for will not fight to defend it . I talked with a lifetime military guy and he said we should be very concerned about the deterioration of the military.
Nothing i see or hear gives me reason to be optimistic about my Grandkids future .

 

[ghadarits]

I read an article about 5 years ago that stated in no uncertain terms the pay structure would flip within the next 10 years to where trades people would be the ones making the bigger salary over office workers. In my heart I believe that's the way it should. I can't tell you how many times we uneducated techs and field workers have caught wrongly engineered designs before we started constructing and had it changed. It was usually a fight to get things changed but we were right because we had the real experience to know what would work and what wouldn't. Now I’m in the office and it’s stressful trying to get everything to fall into place when it supposed to.

 

[Whitefeather]

I'm a civil/water/sewer engineer and senior PM. I've been doing this 25 years. Everything from little small grading jobs right up to massive 200 MGD+ pump stations and treatment plants for big cities. I've done a whole bunch of pipeline/linear utility design, I've done some roadway engineering....and I also have led large multi disciplinary teams through big projects. I like to tell people when they ask me what I do that make smart people with poor social skills talk to each other, AKA engineering management.

These days, I've currently got 15 active projects. It's literally 100k LF of pipe, some big other heavy civil projects, etc. Combined probably well over $200M of construction value. I have exactly ONE other engineer in the office and ONE drafter. The company has 5 others in other offices that are assigned to help out some. Only one of them has more than 3 years of experience. The rest are greener than green. And the one that has a little more experience is very passive. Doesn't do any little detail unless you micromanage him to do it. We have 4 projects in construction and NO construction manager type support.

Our industry is so hit by "brain drain" that there literally just aren't people to do the work and have the experience to know how. There's only one of me and I'm drowning trying to keep what doesn't even qualify as a skeleton crew keeping things moving. I don't think we have the experience and capability for the our staff to keep the company meeting expectations. Not even close. I can't do it all myself, I can't tell everyone every keystroke to push, button to hit, and action to take.

Our HR recruiting specialist is best described as "head full of cotton candy". She's the worst "recruiter" I've ever seen. She's nevr identified one single candidate. And she can't even get us signed up for a job fare at a university to get in front of new grads. She can't take a position posted on the company website and advertise it on any other site like Indeed, LinkedIn, etc. We have spots open, nobody applies because she can't get them advertised wider in front of people.

We're failing here because we just don't have the horses to run the race we're in and it's killing me. I've never experienced anything like this at all. The company leadership says a lot but isn't acting. I've been with the company almost 3 years. We're working for clients I've known for almost 20. I've got a good enough rep and relationship with the clients personally that when I honestly tell them the problems are attrition and lack of people/skill sets, they get it, they see it in our competition too, but it's still not good.

I've always done good work. I've always been able to get teams to perform when I had enough butts in seats. I'm at my wits end right now because I can't manage a team when there isn't a team to manage. I'm not gonna quit, I can't leave clients I've got long term personal relationships with hanging. I'm gonna get through this and get this work load done one way or another. However, when we're over the hump, if we haven't found a way to recruit some people, even green new grads I can train, I think I need to find a way out.

Same boat sir. I work for a small engineering company and we’re in the same situation. Can’t find any help
(Auto CAD, surveyors, or young engineers) either. It’s been like that for about 4-5 years but got way worse since the start of Corona. I’m not an engineer myself but work with them everyday….Civil, environmental, water/wastewater, storm water. This younger generation is really scary.

 

[mallardsx2]

I read your post three times…

The first question that comes to mind is how much are you paying your people?

 

[Lukikus2]

I hate to be the one to say this but this is a problem across all industries right now. I'm in telecom and we're struggling to get material and even more so to find qualified people willing to come to work and perform.
This is the whiteboard in my office and the top left is what I need. If you're smart on top of that then we have a real winner.
I've been one of several PMs on some 900 million plus projects but those weren't civil type projects. Stadiums and arenas are my biggest construction jobs. I'll come to work for you but you have to know its the perspective employees who holds the cards right now.

OMG

When they write their ignorance on the board it can't be denied. I left a very lucrative position because of such stupidity. Because of HR. The idiots don't realize the only reason they are there is because of you. Then the flip side. Your employer is to cheap to hire qualified people.