Near death experience

[oldfella1962]

An unbeliever will most likely characterize their suffering as the result of random forces and not attribute them to some grand plan hatched in the mind of a super being. Some unbelievers might believe in Karma or Fate, which would be irrational. Avoidance of pain is hardwired. It's the same for the believer and the nonbeliever.

"hatched in the mind of a super being" sounds pretty awesome - I can't explain exactly why, but I like it! As for the avoidance of pain/discomfort/hunger yes that is hardwired through evolution and is inherent in every species complex enough to experience these things. Many humans of course ratchet the avoidance up a notch and go too far and take our avoidance of pain into the pursuit of pleasure and we become our own worst enemy. As for Karma or fate, we often hear people say "everything happens for a reason" - whether a religious reason or a generally supernatural/spiritual reason. That used to make sense to me, but now I have sort of tweaked this idea. Things do not happen "for a reason" HOWEVER very often "things" will happen that seem crazy or chaotic or downright disastrous, but these things create opportunities that we can use to turn situations around. In other words, "poop happens" just because poop happens, full stop. This does not require nor is it a result of supernatural agency of any fashion. I'm not being Pollyannaish nor delusional, I'm just being realistic. Unfortunate things happen to everyone but the universe is not out to get us, nor to help us. But if we have a functioning brain and are still above ground, our opportunities to turn things around to our benefit - or the benefit of society - are literally unlimited if we just hold our heads up, keep moving forward, and bring our "A game" to each & every situation. Sidenote what's all this talk I've been hearing about atheists being all "gloom & doom" and having a "god sized hole"* in their heart that needs to be filled for their life to have
any real meaning?
* not just any god of course

 

[WaltL1]

I would say because we are all searching for that something. If I was an unbeliever I would not be searching for pain and suffering no matter what. I would still want the peace Love security and happiness if I did not believe. If you had experienced the glory of God for a mere second, what would you want............I do not believe that anyone who experienced that would do anything but change their life and seek the only one who can offer it.

I would still want the peace Love security and happiness if I did not believe.

Of course ^

seek the only one who can offer it.

Thats ^ where your train goes off the track in our view.
Its just a fact that people of different faiths or no faith have achieved all of those things in their lives.
Its not your belief in a god that is going to make your life successful or a train wreck.
YOU have to put in the work or nothing happens.

 

[oldfella1962]

Of course ^

Thats ^ where your train goes off the track in our view.
Its just a fact that people of different faiths or no faith have achieved all of those things in their lives.
Its not your belief in a god that is going to make your life successful or a train wreck.
YOU have to put in the work or nothing happens.

Good point! No matter what our religious beliefs - or lack of - every human has to live their life interacting with the natural world. Even with a religion like Christianity which posits that a belief in Jesus will ensure your place in Heaven and keep you out of the hot place when you die, you still have to deal with the natural world while you are still alive. Spoiler alert life is always complicated and often chaotic, and you need to stay focused by whatever means necessary. I can't multitask, and dealing with the real world is challenging enough for me - why add a layer of a supernatural world on top of it?

 

[WaltL1]

Good point! No matter what our religious beliefs - or lack of - every human has to live their life interacting with the natural world. Even with a religion like Christianity which posits that a belief in Jesus will ensure your place in Heaven and keep you out of the hot place when you die, you still have to deal with the natural world while you are still alive. Spoiler alert life is always complicated and often chaotic, and you need to stay focused by whatever means necessary. I can't multitask, and dealing with the real world is challenging enough for me - why add a layer of a supernatural world on top of it?

why add a layer of a supernatural world on top of it?

I will say that I think, for some people, that layer of supernatural world (belief in a god or God) can provide the motivation and even offer advantages to achieving that peace, love, security etc.
But again, its not handed to you as a gift, its earned.

 

[ambush80]

"hatched in the mind of a super being" sounds pretty awesome - I can't explain exactly why, but I like it! As for the avoidance of pain/discomfort/hunger yes that is hardwired through evolution and is inherent in every species complex enough to experience these things. Many humans of course ratchet the avoidance up a notch and go too far and take our avoidance of pain into the pursuit of pleasure and we become our own worst enemy. As for Karma or fate, we often hear people say "everything happens for a reason" - whether a religious reason or a generally supernatural/spiritual reason. That used to make sense to me, but now I have sort of tweaked this idea. Things do not happen "for a reason" HOWEVER very often "things" will happen that seem crazy or chaotic or downright disastrous, but these things create opportunities that we can use to turn situations around. In other words, "poop happens" just because poop happens, full stop. This does not require nor is it a result of supernatural agency of any fashion. I'm not being Pollyannaish nor delusional, I'm just being realistic. Unfortunate things happen to everyone but the universe is not out to get us, nor to help us. But if we have a functioning brain and are still above ground, our opportunities to turn things around to our benefit - or the benefit of society - are literally unlimited if we just hold our heads up, keep moving forward, and bring our "A game" to each & every situation. Sidenote what's all this talk I've been hearing about atheists being all "gloom & doom" and having a "god sized hole"* in their heart that needs to be filled for their life to have
any real meaning?
* not just any god of course

I'm glad my prose amused you, but depending on the nature of the "super being", hatched might be the wrong word to use. "Hatched" implies the passage of time, as in there was a time before the thought was hatched, which would not apply to an infinite being.

As for Karma or Fate, I have been convinced that there is no free will and that events are pre determined, mostly by the argument put forward by Sam Harris. You can look into it yourself or I can give you the Cliff notes.

I've been operating under the "poop happens" model since college, when I started giving these ideas real thought.

Meaning in life is mostly arbitrary, from what I can tell. At some point in the search for "meaning", there will be a process of regression analysis, which will lead to an inevitable a-priori assumption, and support for the assumption will be a matter of taste. There is no way to prove the a-priori position, but we can analyze how adoption of it (whatever form it takes) can influence behavior; it's the basis from which a certain line of reasoning will almost always follow.

 

[ambush80]

I will say that I think, for some people, that layer of supernatural world (belief in a god or God) can provide the motivation and even offer advantages to achieving that peace, love, security etc.
But again, its not handed to you as a gift, its earned.

This is absolutely true. The answer "I don't know" to certain questions can be psychologically devastating to some people.

 

[oldfella1962]

I'm glad my prose amused you, but depending on the nature of the "super being", hatched might be the wrong word to use. "Hatched" implies the passage of time, as in there was a time before the thought was hatched, which would not apply to an infinite being.

As for Karma or Fate, I have been convinced that there is no free will and that events are pre determined, mostly by the argument put forward by Sam Harris. You can look into it yourself or I can give you the Cliff notes.

I've been operating under the "poop happens" model since college, when I started giving these ideas real thought.

Meaning in life is mostly arbitrary, from what I can tell. At some point in the search for "meaning", there will be a process of regression analysis, which will lead to an inevitable a-priori assumption, and support for the assumption will be a matter of taste. There is no way to prove the a-priori position, but we can analyze how adoption of it (whatever form it takes) can influence behavior; it's the basis from which a certain line of reasoning will almost always follow.

As for "free will" IMHO if depends on the parameters of free will. In other words, I think that I have free will to choose Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Coke, etcetera. In other words, not every single choice I make is predetermined by myself or any supernatural agent. As for moral or ethical choices, that is primarily determined by my brain wiring, but are there exceptions to this rule? Can my future behavior be predicted with 100 percent accuracy? I just don't have the education nor experience to weigh in on that.

 

[jbogg]

I didn’t have the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is already been shared. I listened to this podcast recently with a physician who has been studying/documenting near death experiences for 25 years. Over 3000 - 4000 documented experiences from all around the world, from a variety of religions and cultures. His observations are pretty amazing. People from a variety of different religions and backgrounds all describing very similar experiences. Most compelling is that so often many of these individuals are able to describe what is going on around them, as well as what is being said by those around them after they are clinically dead.

It was very interesting to hear him speak of very young children who had a NDE. Several were so young that they had no religious foundation, yet described a very similar experience to those who were older and religious.

Most interesting was the near death experience of a woman who had been blind since birth. Blind to the point of not even being able to distinguish light from dark. Her description of what she saw and heard was almost identical to that of a sighted person.

At a minimum these documented experiences give one something to ponder, and in my case helps during those times of doubt.

 

[oldfella1962]

This is absolutely true. The answer "I don't know" to certain questions can be psychologically devastating to some people.

No doubt some people demand rock-solid answers. That could be why many believers (not all) are always mocking science. Obviously, science is based on constantly being proved wrong, or at the very least adding to their explanations as the data is updated. Science doesn't have the luxury of saying "God did it -the Bible says so - now shut your mouth!"
Personally I think that "I don't know" is sometimes the best answer if you cannot demonstrate or explain your answer. I would rather hear "I don't know" so that I can find out who does actually know rather than be given faulty reasoning.

 

[oldfella1962]

Yes pe

I didn’t have the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is already been shared. I listened to this podcast recently with a physician who has been studying/documenting near death experiences for 25 years. Over 3000 - 4000 documented experiences from all around the world, from a variety of religions and cultures. His observations are pretty amazing. People from a variety of different religions and backgrounds all describing very similar experiences. Most compelling is that so often many of these individuals are able to describe what is going on around them, as well as what is being said by those around them after they are clinically dead.

It was very interesting to hear him speak of very young children who had a NDE. Several were so young that they had no religious foundation, yet described a very similar experience to those who were older and religious.

Most interesting was the near death experience of a woman who had been blind since birth. Blind to the point of not even being able to distinguish light from dark. Her description of what she saw and heard was almost identical to that of a sighted person.

At a minimum these documented experiences give one something to ponder, and in my case helps during those times of doubt.

Yes NDE patients can remember what people around them said because "clinically dead" is not 100 percent cut-and-dried. There is a brief window there, and since the NDE patients did indeed survive, they were not actually/fully dead - or they wouldn't have lived to tell us what they heard. That said there could be some kind of "afterlife" that has nothing to do with what various religions preach. Nobody has ever came back from actual no doubt about it death, so we have to die to find out.

 

[WaltL1]

I didn’t have the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is already been shared. I listened to this podcast recently with a physician who has been studying/documenting near death experiences for 25 years. Over 3000 - 4000 documented experiences from all around the world, from a variety of religions and cultures. His observations are pretty amazing. People from a variety of different religions and backgrounds all describing very similar experiences. Most compelling is that so often many of these individuals are able to describe what is going on around them, as well as what is being said by those around them after they are clinically dead.

It was very interesting to hear him speak of very young children who had a NDE. Several were so young that they had no religious foundation, yet described a very similar experience to those who were older and religious.

Most interesting was the near death experience of a woman who had been blind since birth. Blind to the point of not even being able to distinguish light from dark. Her description of what she saw and heard was almost identical to that of a sighted person.

At a minimum these documented experiences give one something to ponder, and in my case helps during those times of doubt.

All super interesting and we all would be mostly guessing to try and explain it. All of us.

 

[WaltL1]

Yes pe

Yes NDE patients can remember what people around them said because "clinically dead" is not 100 percent cut-and-dried. There is a brief window there, and since the NDE patients did indeed survive, they were not actually/fully dead - or they wouldn't have lived to tell us what they heard. That said there could be some kind of "afterlife" that has nothing to do with what various religions preach. Nobody has ever came back from actual no doubt about it death, so we have to die to find out.

That said there could be some kind of "afterlife" that has nothing to do with what various religions preach.

Its interesting how people rarely ever consider that ^.

 

[oldfella1962]

Its interesting how people rarely ever consider that ^.

It makes more sense - it seems more likely - for there to be something that applies to every human being that nobody has the capacity to understand than there being many different versions of an "afterlife" preached by many different man-made religions.

 

[ambush80]

I didn’t have the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is already been shared. I listened to this podcast recently with a physician who has been studying/documenting near death experiences for 25 years. Over 3000 - 4000 documented experiences from all around the world, from a variety of religions and cultures. His observations are pretty amazing. People from a variety of different religions and backgrounds all describing very similar experiences. Most compelling is that so often many of these individuals are able to describe what is going on around them, as well as what is being said by those around them after they are clinically dead.

It was very interesting to hear him speak of very young children who had a NDE. Several were so young that they had no religious foundation, yet described a very similar experience to those who were older and religious.

Most interesting was the near death experience of a woman who had been blind since birth. Blind to the point of not even being able to distinguish light from dark. Her description of what she saw and heard was almost identical to that of a sighted person.

At a minimum these documented experiences give one something to ponder, and in my case helps during those times of doubt.

I like the path that Theo Von is taking. He may go from knucklehead to serious thinker if he keeps interviewing interesting people and asking questions with an open mind, like Joe Rogan. As for near death experiences, there are many accounts that mirror DMT trips; tunnels of light, people from the past, etherial beings, feelings of peace and oneness. It's hypothesized that at death the pineal gland may excrete DMT. As an evolutionary trait, I can surmise a utility to such a thing happening. It's the body's version of "limp home mode" like some cars have; operating on the bare minimum and not doing any more damage until repair is possible.

 

[ambush80]

Yes pe

Yes NDE patients can remember what people around them said because "clinically dead" is not 100 percent cut-and-dried. There is a brief window there, and since the NDE patients did indeed survive, they were not actually/fully dead - or they wouldn't have lived to tell us what they heard. That said there could be some kind of "afterlife" that has nothing to do with what various religions preach. Nobody has ever came back from actual no doubt about it death, so we have to die to find out.

"To blaaaaathe"

 

[ambush80]

As for "free will" IMHO if depends on the parameters of free will. In other words, I think that I have free will to choose Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Coke, etcetera. In other words, not every single choice I make is predetermined by myself or any supernatural agent. As for moral or ethical choices, that is primarily determined by my brain wiring, but are there exceptions to this rule? Can my future behavior be predicted with 100 percent accuracy? I just don't have the education nor experience to weigh in on that.

The one line explanation of the No Free Will argument goes "You are the result of a long line of things that you had no control over and that condition persists throughout the course of your life and after". Search for Sam Harris's thought experiment on Free Will if you want some entertainment.

 

[oldfella1962]

"To blaaaaathe"

One of those movies I never got around to seeing, believe it or not.

 

[oldfella1962]

The one line explanation of the No Free Will argument goes "You are the result of a long line of things that you had no control over and that condition persists throughout the course of your life and after". Search for Sam Harris's thought experiment on Free Will if you want some entertainment.

I have watched a lot of Sam Harris debates and lectures, but I was never really interested in the "free will" discussion.

 

[j_seph]

@WaltL1 I have to ask, if you were on your death bed, suffering in torment knowing that the time is near. Will you or would you reach out to a higher power, a God, THE God?

 

[WaltL1]

@WaltL1 I have to ask, if you were on your death bed, suffering in torment knowing that the time is near. Will you or would you reach out to a higher power, a God, THE God?

I cant tell you what I'm going to do on my death bed but considering I dont believe in the existance of gods, Im guessing I wouldnt expect any results if I did reach out.
Its interesting you present me with a worst case scenario. Death bed, suffering, torment.....
What if I was calm, ready to go, and at peace that I was going to pass away?