Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

[gordon 2]

From the OP:

Quote( So, it doesn't seem "impossible" for a Holy God to forgive sin at times before Jesus came to Earth, or before Jesus died on the cross as payment for our sins. )


I'm going to rewrite this:

So, it doesn't seem "impossible" for God to give eternal life before Jesus came to Earth and before Jesus died on the cross.

Or, it doesn't seem "impossible" for God to "open up the heavens" before Jesus came to Earth and before Jesus died on the cross.
................


Jesus says this to a Samaritan woman, ( before the cross) "But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”…

Before saying this to the woman he had said this:



“If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

I somehow think or understand now that the gift of God here is eternal life or the opening up of heaven to an individual and that it does not require the cross.

"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

It seems to me that some were born twice before the cross. At least I can infer this by Jesus' statements to Nicodemus. And that some were not born again especially those in religious-spiritual authority over the people was the problem being addressed which remedy was Jesus' ministry, ie; cross, resurrection, Pentecost "that everyone who believes may have eternal life...." regardless that some spiritual leaders had or have it not.

If you knew the gift of God you would know what to ask for. It seems evident to me that King David knew the gift of God, that Mary the mother of God and her family ( relatives) knew it also. We as Christian ( especially from gentile stock) know this gift because for us Jesus was lifted up.

 

[StriperAddict]

Although "His grace is relational" has been used by many to insert the influence of men into the Providence of God, I take it from your following examples that your implication is not that.

Yes. The relational aspect I emphasize has more to do with encouragement for those that might believe some ladder climbing or religious self effort & sufficiency is necessary to bridge the God/man gap. The cross and resurrection are often veiled in such teaching.
I know, I did the Pharisee rig for years and it burned me right out.

 

[M80]

As I have been led by the Spirit in studying the Word I’m come to see that the OT folks lived by faith looking unto the coming messiah. I can almost here the thief on the cross saying in paradise “He is coming, he was right behind me” in paradise(abrahams bosom). We see in scripture that Jesus descended and led the captive free to heaven or a heaven. Ephesians 4 says “
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
He presented himself to the ones in Abraham’s bosom, got the keys to he11 and death, and led the captives to where he ascended.

 

[StriperAddict]

I somehow think or understand now that the gift of God here is eternal life or the opening up of heaven to an individual and that it does not require the cross.

You can't have eternal life without a resurrection and you can't have a resurrection without a cross.

1 Cor 15:17-18
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

And you once called me a heretic, LOL.

 

[gemcgrew]

Yet Jesus has always been the only way.

"Nothing that has it's being in time, can be the cause of that which is eternal". ~ William Eyre

Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[NCHillbilly]

If predestination is true, God is evil.

 

[gordon 2]

You can't have eternal life without a resurrection and you can't have a resurrection without a cross.

1 Cor 15:17-18
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

And you once called me a heretic, LOL.

There is only one problem with our view:

Mary was full of grace before her son had been raised.

"And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

If the Lord is with Mary for real here, I'm not a hairy tick. But maybe this Gabriel was "just grooming" Mary, in which case I'm a hairy tick.

I don't know? Why would Moses and Elie just show up at the transfiguration like they had some claim to kinship with Jesus?

Are my inferences demonic to you?

How about his inference:

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the priestly course of Abijah; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord."

Both husband and wife were righteous before God and walking blameless?... Yea right!

Yea right. Who ever wrote this was really selling snake oil right? Before the cross a husband and a wife were able to walk blameless? Nope, this is an exaggeration right? A literary device? The writer got carried away with his too good to be true narrative characters?

 

[gemcgrew]

If predestination is true, God is evil.

Predestination is true. It even applies to stupid statements.

 

[RegularJoe]

If predestination is true, God is evil.

I am in no manner trying to be argumentative...
my completely earnest and objective interest is in...
what, Sir, is your definition of 'evil?' - Thanks.

 

[hummerpoo]

It's only one man's understanding vs. another man's understanding, but for this man:

If predestination is true, God is evil.

show's a failure to understand both predestination and evil.

 

[gemcgrew]

It's only one man's understanding vs. another man's understanding, but for this man:



show's a failure to understand both predestination and evil.

After centuries of philosophical and theological debate, this is as far as the Atheist/Agnostic has gotten.

 

[hummerpoo]

Yes. The relational aspect I emphasize has more to do with encouragement for those that might believe some ladder climbing or religious self effort & sufficiency is necessary to bridge the God/man gap. The cross and resurrection are often veiled in such teaching.
I know, I did the Pharisee rig for years and it burned me right out.

Two things here; both just opinions.

From my perspective, the teaching of "ladder climbing" can only be viewed as a Strawman, because the only thing I can relate it to, from my experience, is a couple of sermons I have heard that were based in sociology, psychology, and/or anthropology and therefore not to be taken seriously.

Second is that your statement above supports what I have been noticing for the last few weeks: that being that there is a distinction between what you express in your own words and that which is expressed in the posts which you make quoting others. That distinction being that your statements appear to me to come from a heart that love's God; and those that you quote appear to me to come from the anthropocentric constructs of Relational Theology, Open Theology, and Process Theology; all of which deny certain substantial attributes of God, such as Omniscience, Omnipotence, Infinity, and others.

 

[NCHillbilly]

After centuries of philosophical and theological debate, this is as far as the Atheist/Agnostic has gotten.

I'm not an athiest.
So, explain to me the joy of creating large numbers of people who are predestined to burn in Hades for eternity, just because you want them to? I'm failing to see the benefits of this arrangement.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I am in no manner trying to be argumentative...
my completely earnest and objective interest is in...
what, Sir, is your definition of 'evil?' - Thanks.

Causing intentional and deliberate harm to others. As in, you will be cast into Hades no matter what you do, because that is what I created as your ultimate fate.

You may be interpreting the term predestination differently than me. I am going by the way I heard it explained by various fundamentalist preachers in my youth who believed that only a certain number of people were ordained to be saved and go to heaven, everybody else was bound for Hades. From the moment you were born, your fate was already sealed. If you don't inherently see why that is wrong if you a being who has the power of a creator, then I have no further explanation for you.

 

[Spotlite]

Causing intentional and deliberate harm to others. As in, you will be cast into Hades no matter what you do, because that is what I created as your ultimate fate.

You may be interpreting the term predestination differently than me. I am going by the way I heard it explained by various fundamentalist preachers in my youth who believed that only a certain number of people were ordained to be saved and go to heaven, everybody else was bound for Hades. From the moment you were born, your fate was already sealed. If you don't inherently see why that is wrong if you a being who has the power of a creator, then I have no further explanation for you.

I wished those fundamentalists would explain why the Lord was grieved in Genesis and why He repented of the evil he was going to do to Nineveh until Nineveh turned from their wicked ways. He certainly didn’t grieve / plan to do evil in judgment to them because man / Nineveh acted according to design and His Will. And why they ignore over half the Bible about man following after his own desires.

 

[hummerpoo]

The 3 previous posts, #33, #34, #35, presuppose far too much of man and far too little of God; something no man can change.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I wished those fundamentalists would explain why the Lord was grieved in Genesis and why He repented of the evil he was going to do to Nineveh until Nineveh turned from their wicked ways. He certainly didn’t grieve / plan to do evil in judgment to them because man / Nineveh acted according to design and His Will. And why they ignore over half the Bible about man following after his own desires.

I don't understand a lot of their ideas or beliefs.

 

[hummerpoo]

You appear to be using "fundamentalist" as synonymous with "reformed", which I believe to be incorrect.

However, if you are using that relationship between the two words, does not

I don't understand a lot of their ideas or beliefs.

mean that you are drawing conclusions from you lack of understanding.

 

[NCHillbilly]

You appear to be using "fundamentalist" as synonymous with "reformed", which I believe to be incorrect.

However, if you are using that relationship between the two words, does not

mean that you are drawing conclusions from you lack of understanding.

When I was growing up around here, there were two main sets of what I would call fundamentalist preachers. One set believed in predestination, and the other set believed in free will. They argued about it with each other all the time and both sets said the other set was going to Hades. Both sides spent most of their time hollering at people all the reasons they were going to Hades.

 

[Artfuldodger]

When I was growing up around here, there were two main sets of what I would call fundamentalist preachers. One set believed in predestination, and the other set believed in free will. They argued about it with each other all the time and both sets said the other set was going to Hades. Both sides spent most of their time hollering at people all the reasons they were going to Hades.

It's weird that the predestination/election preachers preached fire and brimstone to folks as to why they were going to Hades.