Church Switchers

[brownceluse]

@The Original Rooster I think sometimes these churches started out on a firm foundation. Some should’ve never been started. I’ve spend a lot of time the last year reading Ravenhill, AW Tozer, Spurgeon and some others. They were all revivalist and were part true awakenings. There was a remnant when Christ walked the earth and there’s still a remnant. Reading what these great men of God wrote and preached in their day to the see state of the church and world now just blows my mind. Here’s a great quote from Charles Spurgeon.

- “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without ****.”

 

[SemperFiDawg]

If my church did this, I would run screaming for the door.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

This quote by Leonard Ravenhill sums up the American church today perfectly.

““The early Church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity.”

There's poverty, prisons and persecutions today more than ever. More people than ever are suffering from the ever-growing evil. Churches that are stepping up and addressing this suffering by showing Christ is the answer are flourishing also. God hasn't quit being the answer to mans suffering.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

The only thing that will bring us back to a nation that depends on God is extreme issues on a nationwide scale.

It's coming. It can't NOT come. I have no confidence that the "nation" will respond. You look at Revelations and even though the people knew the tribulations were God's judgement they didn't repent but instead cursed God. I'll wager spiritually we're there now. I can definitely see that playing out should the tribulations start tomorrow.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Religion is hanging around the cross, Christianity is getting on the cross.

Never heard it but I like it. It rings true.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

On a personal level, I think that too many pastors now focus on entertaining their church instead of teaching their church.

Agreed, but I have to wonder where they ever got the notion that the Gospel was no longer enough. You have to think the wealth of America as a whole plays a massive role. Comfortable people are easily persuaded there is no need for God, but comfortable people still love to be entertained.

 

[gordon 2]

Perhaps the reason for "the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity.” is that generally the Christian churches and missions want to minister to the people where they're at or within the items common to a culture's shared history.

If the culture itself independent or dependent on prosperity, personality and popularity ( and money I might add) are common denominators which form identity and individual identity then the church must minister in such a context.

I don't think that Christian churches and organizations try to necessarily exploit people or society when they want to minister to people "where they're at". Paul once ministered to the gentiles from their monument to "The unknown god."

A culture of travelling tent bible based church Holy Ghost revival missions have the ability to put pegged foundations down according to the lay of most any land. And they are in style made so to quickly bug out.

Many use the quotes of other men to think for themselves as if these were a better distillation for their own thoughts and I'm not immune to doing this very thing:

"When everything and everyone else is the problem but you, you just might be the problem." " When you rap yourself to the cross, make sure you're not putting on your devil."

 

[brownceluse]

There's poverty, prisons and persecutions today more than ever. More people than ever are suffering from the ever-growing evil. Churches that are stepping up and addressing this suffering by showing Christ is the answer are flourishing also. God hasn't quit being the answer to mans suffering.

I haven't seen that in the American church. I have in China, Sudan I have in other countries but not here. God will always be on the throne. Thats all the security we need but to think they'll be no true suffering for our faith in this country in the coming years would be silly. After all, we are the most compromised, seeker friendly nation on the planet.

 

[brownceluse]

Perhaps the reason for "the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity.” is that generally the Christian churches and missions want to minister to the people where they're at or within the items common to a culture's shared history.

If the culture itself independent or dependent on prosperity, personality and popularity ( and money I might add) are common denominators which form identity and individual identity then the church must minister in such a context.

I don't think that Christian churches and organizations try to necessarily exploit people or society when they want to minister to people "where they're at". Paul once ministered to the gentiles from their monument to "The unknown god."

A culture of travelling tent bible based church Holy Ghost revival missions have the ability to put pegged foundations down according to the lay of most any land. And they are in style made so to quickly bug out.

Many use the quotes of other men to think for themselves as if these were a better distillation for their own thoughts and I'm not immune to doing this very thing:

"When everything and everyone else is the problem but you, you just might be the problem." " When you rap yourself to the cross, make sure you're not putting on your devil."

I see your point. But the word of God is flawless. He's the same yesterday, today and forever. We should never change our message to fill seats, get rich, or to just make people feel good about themselves and their sin. Afterall, we are nothing. Chirst is everything. We are to die to self. If we do and try then we never have to change the message because the remnant could care less about their bank accounts. We know he'll supply all our needs according to "his" riches an glory. I don't put my faith in men or their quotes unless they align with the word the God. Nor should you. The application could change but the message will always remain the same. Jesus and him crucified is enough. The Holy Spirit does the work.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I haven't seen that in the American church. I have in China, Sudan I have in other countries but not here. God will always be on the throne. Thats all the security we need but to think they'll be no true suffering for our faith in this country in the coming years would be silly. After all, we are the most compromised, seeker friendly nation on the planet.

The carnage caused by the destruction of the family, drugs, sex, alcohol, the complete moral collapse -our entire populace is one seething mass of spiritual poverty, completely destitute of hope. Most won't seek God, but enough will to fill every church that can offer hope for their suffering.

 

[Ruger#3]

Are you speaking broadly or specifically: The Great Commission or specific missions?

That was my question as well. What are we specifically saying if beyond the great commission.

 

[brownceluse]

The carnage caused by the destruction of the family, drugs, sex, alcohol, the complete moral collapse -our entire populace is one seething mass of spiritual poverty, completely destitute of hope. Most won't seek God, but enough will to fill every church that can offer hope for their suffering.

I see that different than most. Sin is why we see the destruction of the family, drugs, sex, alcohol and the complete moral collapse of our populace. But, it started in the “church” first. The church has no power. Or as we’ve seen in the video posted here sold itself for entertainment. What I was referring to is being imprisoned or even killed for your Christian faith here in the country. Maybe the last martyrs here in America were at Columbine?

 

[gordon 2]

The carnage caused by the destruction of the family, drugs, sex, alcohol, the complete moral collapse -our entire populace is one seething mass of spiritual poverty, completely destitute of hope. Most won't seek God, but enough will to fill every church that can offer hope for their suffering.

This^^^^^ is well said in a very brief yet correct, if not complete assessment of social terrain in my view, especially about people not seeking God. I think it comes from an a well founded perspective, perhaps from a well founded faith, possibly as in this:

"12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 12 Fight the good fight for the true faith."

Now I'm going to talk briefly about "the pursuit of happiness" and as it applies to Christians all over the world, and not at all about its heft in politics. As a matter of fact I hate to have to type the word politics in this paragraph, so much because I'm sure some will automatically default that it is an item of the world and I would agree, it should not be here on this subject in my view. ( I'm not going there.)

I'm also going to venture to post a link on the subject of " The pursuit of happiness" on the origin of the ideas attached to it so to get at its real intended and long standing meanings. I'm also going to try to be brief.

You will see that the subject of "the pursuit of happiness" comes out of a dialogue or perhaps a monologue concerning the difference between " the pursuit of imaginary happiness" and " the pursuit of real happiness.

I will venture to say that if society is at war with itself in the case as described by SFD, that for many problems we have cause for anxiety and worry, and that we observe that individuals and their families to feel unsafe, then such a society is in the pursuit of imaginary happiness.

What we have in our faith is the hope and the image of a society at peace perhaps where the happiness to be pursued is real happiness.

If I was a deep thinking man of any age with the disposition to obsessively dwell on moral and life, like teenagers or young adults might do, it would be that in the observation the pursuit of happiness preached as real by the church and the pursuit of happiness lived by the church is totally opposed, and then perhaps I'd be the someone's son or daughter living on the streets, or someone's father or mother there also who have so totally given up on life on people whom they perceive as more deranged then themselves. And so SFD says, " Most won't seek God." Is it a wonder why?

If we have reminders such as " In God we trust." and declare that we are bound to the works of the great commission, that we evangelize to those with weakened faith with scripture verse such as this":

" I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.…"

and one's society is at war with itself with the most in it saintly saying that the society is based of Christian values, why are we surprised that our children are stunned and perhaps unable of a wholesome outlook of our faith--- and so their parent's faith life. Our children judge our works perhaps, and in this they have some kinship to some of what is real to our faith.

Ok enough. I'm thinking that perhaps real happiness is that we can live in peace and so in security in our homes, on the streets in our neighborhoods, where we work and play, where we worship, where we study, where ever we live with others in our society which care to live there. This peace might just be the real happiness to pursuit as opposed to other items which afford more imaginary happiness.

It seems to me that " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” the second commandment here begs us to measure our own happiness as having some part in sacrificing ourselves and our pursuits to the good of others. Willing good things for our neighbors is a real pursuit of the saints. It should be demonstrated in the world we live in, if only to selfishly give our children hope, but also exactly due our faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Enough said. I have tried to be as short as possible. Some of you might what to have a look at the link below on the origin and history of the ideas on the pursuit of happiness. I hope you realize that "the pursuit of happiness is about two things: It is about real happiness as opposed to imaginary happiness.

John Locke

John Locke (1632-1704), a major English philosopher, coined the phrase "pursuit of happiness," and Thomas Jefferson incorporated it into the US Declaration

www.pursuit-of-happiness.org

 

[SemperFiDawg]

That was my question as well. What are we specifically saying if beyond the great commission.

I was speaking specifically. Upon being saved one is given a personal commission with a specific duty-reach the lost. If I'm fulfilling my duty then I'm vigorously carrying the gospel in word and deed in every aspect of my life to those both near and far. If a church is fulfilling it's duty, it doing the same. Hope this was specific enough.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I see that different than most. Sin is why we see the destruction of the family, drugs, sex, alcohol and the complete moral collapse of our populace. But, it started in the “church” first. The church has no power. Or as we’ve seen in the video posted here sold itself for entertainment. What I was referring to is being imprisoned or even killed for your Christian faith here in the country. Maybe the last martyrs here in America were at Columbine?

Completely disagree with this. The church has the ONLY power- the only power needed and the only power effective in staving off sin and providing relief for those who are suffering from the effects of it. Now whether a specific church acknowledges that and whether it's a specific church's primary goal is a separate matter entirely.

What I was referring to is being imprisoned or even killed for your Christian faith here in the country.

I get your point, but remember the battle is spiritual. The pain, poverty, suffering is spiritual. The harvest is still plentiful, the problem is even a lot of self-proclaimed laborers are busy sewing more tares.

 

[tell sackett]

If my church did this, I would run screaming for the door.

You’re much kinder than I am. I would have called an audible and blitzed the stage.
Ain’t happening.

Truth be told, there would probably have been enough previous “shenanigans” to convince me to shake the dust off long before this.

 

[gordon 2]

We can read in scripture "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." regards commission. Therefore I doubt that but for exceptional cases that upon being saved we are given a personal commission. Most are simply not fit and so outfitted for it yet, and yet unable to know it.

If by providing "room" that someone is "saved" and so saved the individual performs the great commission of the church due to being a member of the church because of personal and specific duty given when one is saved I also have my doubts for the reason above. And I base these doubts in scripture alone.

Sometimes it is best perhaps to get out of God's way, so out of the way we think best to serve him, and let Him be fully Himself with us when he sees fit. We need not jump the doctrine guns as if they were the direct voice of God to us, because they make sense to us and they are important to the new people that surround us, especially that our spiritual bones are not strong enough to test them. Whatever the church is doing it cannot keep on doing the same if every believer it ministers to is led to believe in the Spirit leading to love his neighbor, but also if he jumps your fence, to kill him as if God's enemy. Spiritually this does not make for common spiritual sense especially to the weak and innocent. It is down right disturbing.

 

[gordon 2]

"The pain, poverty, suffering is spiritual" ( quote SFD ) are positive when sacrificed for the Lord's sake. Other than that, these are spiritual in that they are negative and evils possessing people to debase themselves with other evils.

Your insights SFD are very helpful. Where were you all these yrs? Thanks.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Where were you all these yrs? Thanks.

Putting myself through all that spiritual pain, poverty and suffering.....and I'm grateful for every ounce of it. One ounce less and I may very well have not suffered enough to bend my knee to the cross. It took every bit of that pain I had inflicted upon myself to drive me down to the point I was willing to give up control and say, "Enough. I've had enough God. I submit." I can sum up everything I've learned in my 58 years in 2 statements.
1) There's only my way or God's way.
2) My way don't work.

 

[brownceluse]

Completely disagree with this. The church has the ONLY power- the only power needed and the only power effective in staving off sin and providing relief for those who are suffering from the effects of it. Now whether a specific church acknowledges that and whether it's a specific church's primary goal is a separate matter entirely.


I get your point, but remember the battle is spiritual. The pain, poverty, suffering is spiritual. The harvest is still plentiful, the problem is even a lot of self-proclaimed laborers are busy sewing more tares.

The church lost its power when it felt the need to be entertained instead challenged. Have a singing on Saturday night and you can’t find a seat. Come back Sunday morning and tell me the same. If the American church has so much power explain the filth that it has become? As the church goes so does the nation. Greeting, Sing a few songs, offering, nice little 30 minute sermon or motivational talk and then we go home. I don’t buy it. Sorry. Theres way more to it. That I might know him! Oh and God forbid a visitor come and sit in a granny’s seat!!! I’ll go on back to the sports forum now.