Constantine And The Sabbath

[Artfuldodger]

Maybe we need to discuss the purpose of "commandments" and if there is a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

I'll start to say it has something to do with a "relationship." Why don't I cheat on my wife? Answer, I'm having a relationship with her that involves love. I'm not doing it because we live under the vows/commandments. If i break a marriage vow it might not break our marriage but it would hurt our relationship.

 

[gemcgrew]

It's kinda creepy to think about it that way. How would you explain that to someone who has never heard about God & Jesus?

I wouldn't.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I wouldn't.

Yeah the cross story bothers some of them too. You can sneak that in later.

Or did you mean you don't witness?

 

[1gr8bldr]

Why not, for a good purpose? I would say that it is clearly taught in the Bible that God's will determines everything. Nothing exists and nothing happens without God actively willing it and causing it to happen or exist. We are talking about almighty God, creator of all things. There is not one thing that exists or happens that he has not decreed and caused.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

I'm out, no card to play

 

[hobbs27]

Maybe we need to discuss the purpose of "commandments" and if there is a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.
.

They are one in the same.

 

[gemcgrew]

Yeah the cross story bothers some of them too. You can sneak that in later.

Or did you mean you don't witness?

I just don't see that as part of our conversation, when talking to someone who has never heard of God or Jesus.

 

[gemcgrew]

It isn't a matter of how much power the God of all things has. It's a matter of whether God "allows" things to happen outside his constraint.

Do you believe God is active in what he "allows" or "constrains"? How are you differing from what I said?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Do you not know that the greatest act of injustice in human history was determined and performed by God? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Do you see a good and perfect purpose?

Maybe it was more like suicide by cop than God killing Jesus.

I do see your point. God knew Jesus would die on the cross beforehand. That was the plan from the beginning. Jesus knew he would die on the cross too.

 

[Artfuldodger]

They are one in the same.

Jn 15:10-12 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

My commandments - My Father's commandments

New covenant commandments-Old covenant commandments

 

[Ronnie T]

None of the apostles ever taught a church to observe a sabbath.
They all quiet did the opposite.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

85 Times the Apostles are mentioned keeping the Sabbath and teaching;
http://www.eliyah.com/85times.html

As I said, "The apostles never taught the early church to observe the sabbath".
And just because they went to a synagogue doesn't mean they observed those sabbath rites.
The sysagogue was the perfect place to teach about Jesus. The scriptures so much as states that.

Again, I say, "An apostle never instructed a gentile believer in Christ to observe the rites of the Sabbath as part of their discipleship to Jesus".
Actually, they never instructed a Jewish Christian to continue observing those rites.
.

 

[hobbs27]

Jn 15:10-12 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

My commandments - My Father's commandments

New covenant commandments-Old covenant commandments

As I said, they are one in the same.

The only difference I see is the OT commandments was with man, contained in the ark covenant.
Research Obed-Edom and how he was blessed by the presence of the ark, and he would not leave it.

Where is the ark covenant today?--------- Where is the law?

The Holy Spirit ---------------- Within man

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Artfuldodger]

As I said, they are one in the same.

The only difference I see is the OT commandments was with man, contained in the ark covenant.
Research Obed-Edom and how he was blessed by the presence of the ark, and he would not leave it.

Where is the ark covenant today?--------- Where is the law?

The Holy Spirit ---------------- Within man

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The law is written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit helps us keep it.
What does it mean "Writing my laws in their hearts?"
What laws are to be written in our hearts?

From an article I agree with about the Law:
Some church members have been confused about God's laws and ask "What are the laws, or commandments, that are to be written in our hearts?" Jesus Christ made it clear that the 10 commandments, which God gave to Moses as the basis, the foundation, and framework of the old covenant and all of His law, must be kept and obeyed, in order to enter into eternal life, Mat. 19:17-21. It is made clear that the 10 commandments are summed up as God's two great commandments, that teaches His elect how to love God, and to love one's neighbor, and one's brother, as himself. Christ gave this as the answer for what is God's great commandments. God's commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love one's neighbor as himself, and Christ said on these two commandments hang all the law and prophets, Mat. 22:37-40. Christ tells us, that all of God's law give by His prophets, that magnifies, details, expounds, defines, and directs one, how to love God and to love one's neighbor as himself, is to be kept, obeyed, and written in one's heart. "Love works no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law," Rom.13:10.

God says "if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21. "By this we know that we love the children (brethren) of God, when we love God and keep His commandments," I John 5:2. "For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3. "And this is love, that we walk after His commandments," II John 6. "If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us," I John 4:12. "God is love, and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world, " I John 4:16-17. "He that keeps His commandments dwells in Him and He in him." "And hereby we know that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given us," I John 3:24.

This is all because there is a very erroneous and corrupt concept and mis-understanding in teaching that has been accepted, taught, and passed down, about the Pharisees of the Scriptures. The false teaching is believing, and accepting the teaching, that the Pharisees were strict commandment keepers, which is a lie, and because of all Christ's condemnation, He leveled against the Pharisees, pastors believe it is justified, to call any strict, complete righteous commandment keeper of the body of Jesus Christ, a Pharisee, and a legalist and unloving. Many pastors continually preach that the Pharisees were strict commandment keepers of God's law. This is another plain lie. This is an erroneous belief and false understanding and accepting as truth that the Pharisees were very precise, exact, complete and strict keepers of God's commandments. This is a false teaching and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible!

The Plain Truth is, the Pharisees were not strict keepers of God's law and commandments, but were gross transgressors and violators of God's laws!
http://donimon.org/writingmylaws.html

The couple who wrote this are from Kentucky and don't belong to a Church Denomination and keep the Sabbath.
http://donimon.org/aboutus.html

 

[mtnwoman]

What does it mean "Writing my laws in their hearts?"
What laws are to be written in our hearts?

I think those old laws are strictly for the Jews....and perhaps their traditions.

The laws that are written in my heart are the ones you posted....as a gentile.

I believe converted Jews carry both laws in their hearts. But I believe they are released from the old law, even though it remains in them. Hope that makes sense.

ie perhaps they keep the sabbath, etc. If they are convicted to do so, who's to say they are wrong?

 

[gemcgrew]

All are under condemnation and Jews are no better off than Gentiles. The Jews do not obey the law, they break it. They break it so often that Paul said "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."(Romans 2:24)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:12)

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:19,20)

 

[mtnwoman]

All are under condemnation and Jews are no better off than Gentiles. The Jews do not obey the law, they break it. They break it so often that Paul said "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."(Romans 2:24)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:12)

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."(Romans 3:19,20)

That's why we have Jesus.

 

[StriperAddict]

I believe converted Jews carry both laws in their hearts. But I believe they are released from the old law, even though it remains in them. Hope that makes sense.

Well said.
The old schoolmaster is out (dead),
and the Living One is in.

Relating to God by way of law will bring one's identity to works and frustration;
whereas relating to God by faith/grace (His work alone) will redeem one's identity to a New Creation; holy, blameless and justified.

 

[StriperAddict]

I'm out, no card to play

I'll try,

While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'll try,

While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.

That was a very good article and how I feel about evil and events happening randomly. I don't believe God is a micro-manager and we have free will to do good and bad.
I wished MacAuthur would have brought up Acts 4:28 that we were discussing.
Acts4:28 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
Maybe the greatest act of injustice in human history wasn't determined and performed by God? Maybe this was a blessing for sinners, this fulfillment that God performed.

 

[gemcgrew]

While I may not agree w John MaCarthur on some points, his take on "Is God Responsible for Evil?" is pretty well said.

I have enjoyed some of MacArthur's messages and writings but I find his theology to be inconsistent from one week to the next.

In this article he says that God is not responsible for evil. He then says, "God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).

But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).



MacArthur appears to think that he is in some way defending God from his very creation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I have enjoyed some of MacArthur's messages and writings but I find his theology to be inconsistent from one week to the next.

In this article he says that God is not responsible for evil. He then says, "God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).

But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).



MacArthur appears to think that he is in some way defending God from his very creation.

I picked up on that too but I also pick up on that in the Bible. It appears that sometimes we have free will and some times we don't. It would be easier to believe one or the other.
This is the same way a read commandments and grace in the New Testament. One verse will say grace then another will say follow my commandments.
The way I reconcile is a balance of free will, predestination, grace, faith, hope, love, and obedience to follow the new testament commandments.