In the QDM world, what exactly is a cull buck?

Long Cut

Senior Member
How do you improve genetics with land management short of importing different genetics?...which GA did many years ago, and that is why we have such a diverse herd in different areas of the state. Not legal to do that any more.

Epigenetics. Look it up.

Essentially a pregnant Doe with abundant food/water, allows the fawns genetic markers to reach 100% (full potential). This all occurs while the fetus is in the womb and continues while nursing.

A malnourished Doe will produce a malnourished fawn, or a runt. The runt will never reach the same potential as the fawn described above.

So yes, better habitat WILL allow your deer to reach their full genetic potential.
 

davel

Senior Member
How do you improve genetics with land management short of importing different genetics?...which GA did many years ago, and that is why we have such a diverse herd in different areas of the state. Not legal to do that any more.
You improve genetics by improving what they eat and drink. By providing these things the bucks that already have decent genetics can achieve their maximum potential. You you can improve the size of a bucks antlers by good land management. Take 2 bucks with the exact same genetics and feed one mineral supplements and protein feed and not the other see which one has bigger antlers. Improving natural forage is the same thing. Opening the canopy to let natural forbs grow, providing a water source if there is none, etc. There are more big bucks harvested now than ever before because of improvements to land management.
 
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davel

Senior Member
I’m thinking he didn’t think through that. Maybe good browse equals gene therapy???
That makes no sense. What genetics are you talking about? Wisconsin deer or Georgia deer? Georgia deer have the potential to grow to 200" but they will never have the same genetics as a northern deer. I'm not sure you understand the question posed about a cull buck.
 

davel

Senior Member
Epigenetics. Look it up.

Essentially a pregnant Doe with abundant food/water, allows the fawns genetic markers to reach 100% (full potential). This all occurs while the fetus is in the womb and continues while nursing.

A malnourished Doe will produce a malnourished fawn, or a runt. The runt will never reach the same potential as the fawn described above.

So yes, better habitat WILL allow your deer to reach their full genetic potential.
Thank you!
 
Seems like there isn’t a real definition and I doubt we will get one here either but what does everyone have to say?

I would like some opinions and maybe even some facts to ponder over.
Cull.

Whatever a man in camp decides should die. Period.
 

cowhornedspike

Senior Member
y
You improve genetics by improving what they eat and drink. By providing these things the bucks that already have decent genetics can achieve their maximum potential. You you can improve the size of a bucks antlers by good land management. Take 2 bucks with the exact same genetics and feed one mineral supplements and protein feed and not the other see which one has bigger antlers. Improving natural forage is the same thing. Opening the canopy to let natural forbs grow, providing a water source if there is none, etc. There are more big bucks harvested now than ever before because of improvements to land management.
You can improve the size of the antlers and the overall health of the bucks and does in your woods by a good feeding program and by improving the habitat...but that is not genetics. You quit feeding them and working to keep the habitat up and see what you have in a few years...right back where you started because that IS genetics. What they do on a high fence ranch in Texas doesn't apply to a wild deer herd.
 

buckpasser

Senior Member
That makes no sense. What genetics are you talking about? Wisconsin deer or Georgia deer? Georgia deer have the potential to grow to 200" but they will never have the same genetics as a northern deer. I'm not sure you understand the question posed about a cull buck.

You lost me.
 

davel

Senior Member
The picture with the two bucks were killed three years apart If you look at the right beams there horns look alike Looks like a gene issue I look at all three as unique trophy cull buck

y

You can improve the size of the antlers and the overall health of the bucks and does in your woods by a good feeding program and by improving the habitat...but that is not genetics. You quit feeding them and working to keep the habitat up and see what you have in a few years...right back where you started because that IS genetics. What they do on a high fence ranch in Texas doesn't apply to a wild deer herd.
Ok so what are we talking about really? The size of the antlers and body weight, health, condition? That's what I'm talking about when I say genetics. I'm not trying to change a southern deer into a northern strain. The original question was about a cull buck. I say there is no such thing (in management terms) because you can't shoot poor antler "genetics" out of the herd. It can only be done through nutrition and letting them get old enough to achieve their full potential. And just so you know what they do on a high fence ranch does apply because it shows you what can be done with proper nutrition. They buy bucks with huge racks and better "genetics" because they don't want to wait 4 or 5 years to see results. The difference is you will get bucks with inferior nutrition mixing in with the deer on your property in a wild herd. We have changed the quality of bucks on our property from what we are doing with the land. That is a fact. Are we changing their DNA? No. Not what we are talking about.
 

cowhornedspike

Senior Member
Epigenetics. Look it up.

Essentially a pregnant Doe with abundant food/water, allows the fawns genetic markers to reach 100% (full potential). This all occurs while the fetus is in the womb and continues while nursing.

A malnourished Doe will produce a malnourished fawn, or a runt. The runt will never reach the same potential as the fawn described above.

So yes, better habitat WILL allow your deer to reach their full genetic potential.
Yes, better habitat will allow your deer to reach full genetic potential but that is NOT changing the genetics...just getting the most out of the genetics that are already there. You still have to keep feeding the new fawns the same way or they will be just what they would have been had you done nothing in the first place.

If there is no red hair in your family genetics, you eating lots of carrots will not produce red haired children... Your genetics don't change based on your nutrition level or type of food you eat.

If you are skinny but work hard and become a body builder that does not mean you are gonna have kids that are muscular... Need more?
 

cowhornedspike

Senior Member
Ok so what are we talking about really? The size of the antlers and body weight, health, condition? That's what I'm talking about when I say genetics. I'm not trying to change a southern deer into a northern strain. The original question was about a cull buck. I say there is no such thing (in management terms) because you can't shoot poor antler "genetics" out of the herd. It can only be done through nutrition and letting them get old enough to achieve their full potential. And just so you know what they do on a high fence ranch does apply because it shows you what can be done with proper nutrition. They buy bucks with huge racks and better "genetics" because they don't want to wait 4 or 5 years to see results. The difference is you will get bucks with inferior nutrition mixing in with the deer on your property in a wild herd. We have changed the quality of bucks on our property from what we are doing with the land. That is a fact. Are we changing their DNA? No. Not what we are talking about.
You are using quality and results as if that were the same as genetics. DNA is genetics. I see you agree that you can't change that so I guess we are just applying different definitions to our terms.
 

Long Cut

Senior Member
Yes, better habitat will allow your deer to reach full genetic potential but that is NOT changing the genetics...just getting the most out of the genetics that are already there. You still have to keep feeding the new fawns the same way or they will be just what they would have been had you done nothing in the first place.

If there is no red hair in your family genetics, you eating lots of carrots will not produce red haired children... Your genetics don't change based on your nutrition level or type of food you eat.

If you are skinny but work hard and become a body builder that does not mean you are gonna have kids that are muscular... Need more?

Correct.

We do not need to change any genetics.
Our deer are more than capable of reaching 150-200” if we allow them to reach their true potential.

Let’s not make this complicated, please.
 

davel

Senior Member
Yes, better habitat will allow your deer to reach full genetic potential but that is NOT changing the genetics...just getting the most out of the genetics that are already there. You still have to keep feeding the new fawns the same way or they will be just what they would have been had you done nothing in the first place.

If there is no red hair in your family genetics, you eating lots of carrots will not produce red haired children... Your genetics don't change based on your nutrition level or type of food you eat.

If you are skinny but work hard and become a body builder that does not mean you are gonna have kids that are muscular... Need more?
I don't believe that is what he was referring to. We are talking about QDM cull bucks and what that is. He is saying the same thing I am. We are talking about the potential to change the antler size and body weight, health of the herd.
 

davel

Senior Member
You are using quality and results as if that were the same as genetics. DNA is genetics. I see you agree that you can't change that so I guess we are just applying different definitions to our terms.
Yes. Not trying to argue. I'm just saying when talking about cull bucks and deer we are usually talking about improving their racks and overall health. By doing this you can have more, bigger racked bucks, healthier does, healthier fawns that will acheive their true potential.
 

buckpasser

Senior Member
Ok so what are we talking about really? The size of the antlers and body weight, health, condition? That's what I'm talking about when I say genetics. I'm not trying to change a southern deer into a northern strain. The original question was about a cull buck. I say there is no such thing (in management terms) because you can't shoot poor antler "genetics" out of the herd. It can only be done through nutrition and letting them get old enough to achieve their full potential. And just so you know what they do on a high fence ranch does apply because it shows you what can be done with proper nutrition. They buy bucks with huge racks and better "genetics" because they don't want to wait 4 or 5 years to see results. The difference is you will get bucks with inferior nutrition mixing in with the deer on your property in a wild herd. We have changed the quality of bucks on our property from what we are doing with the land. That is a fact. Are we changing their DNA? No. Not what we are talking about.

We’ve mostly got northern strain where I’m at in GA.
 
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