Jesus' Farewell Discourse

[Artfuldodger]

There are no apostles today. Their foundational role is over.

http://www.scionofzion.com/apostles.htm

 

[gemcgrew]

I don't see how.
Now you stop disagreeing with me. Stop it!
I really don't see how.

I think our disagreement is in the application mostly. If we approach scripture with such a strict view, I think it is going to be problematic throughout. We could say, "that was just for him" or "that was just for her" or "that was just for them".

I understand your position but I think it is too limited.

 

[formula1]

Re:

I think our disagreement is in the application mostly. If we approach scripture with such a strict view, I think it is going to be problematic throughout. We could say, "that was just for him" or "that was just for her" or "that was just for them".

I understand your position but I think it is too limited.

Ronnie is a dear friend no doubt and we have bounced some similar things back and forth before in PM. If he is comfortable with His viewpoint and it serves him well, I am happy for him.

Yet I too feel it is a very limiting view of these scriptures!

May the Lord of Heaven bring clarity to all of our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit! I will just leave it at that! God bless!

 

[Ronnie T]

I'm not trying to diminish God's love for us, nor am I trying to restrict the works of the Holy Spirit. Just trying to leave the words of Christ directed to those which He was speaking to.


In Eph 2, Paul is speaking to all who are saved in Christ.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

I'm not trying to limit the things written by John(as inspired by the Holy Spirit). I'm just leaving them where they were presented to us.

 

[gemcgrew]

Just trying to leave the words of Christ directed to those which He was speaking to.

Where else would we do this? Do you have another example?

 

[hobbs27]

I agree with Ronnie on this one.Thought I would share this little bit too.

 

[Artfuldodger]

"Just as I don't belong to the world they don't belong to the world."
"I sent them into the world just as you sent me into the world."

This was a special prayer from Jesus to his Father to keep his Apostles safe. It was a special request from Jesus to his Father. There was a special bond between Jesus and his Disciples. I'm not even jealous. In fact I would be disappointed in Jesus if he had not made this prayer. I would put this prayer in the same importance as when he later said: forgive them, for they know not what they do. Even before fulfilling his role of Savior, he was already acting as our Remediator.
One would first have to see the close special bond Jesus had with his chosen twelve before one could see the "farewell discourse" was a compelling and distinctive portrait of who Jesus was.
We truly are all disciples of Jesus and have the Gift of the Holy Spirit but it is truly different from what Jesus & the chosen 12 had with each other.
I would say learn from their relationship and try to be a part of the plea where Jesus wanted the disciples to have the same connection He had with his Father.

 

[gemcgrew]

We truly are all disciples of Jesus and have the Gift of the Holy Spirit but it is truly different from what Jesus & the chosen 12 had with each other.

How is it different? Can you show it?

 

[Ronnie T]

How is it different? Can you show it?

Yes. They were prophets.
.

 

[gemcgrew]

Yes. They were prophets.
.

Granted, to a point. If we are going to hold to the strictest terms, the prophetic office closed with John the Baptist and the apostolic office closed with the apostles. I would agree here. But I think there is a broad sense in which we can say that there are prophets and apostles today.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Peter in Acts 9: 36-43 raised Dorcas.

Paul in Acts 20:7-12 raised the young man Eutychus.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The apostles could speak in tongues?

And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? […] We have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts of the Apostles 2:6-8,11)
After the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the apostles went forth from their hiding-room and boldly proclaimed the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all peoples. The word of the Lord was preached, quite literally, to all peoples: To Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-apostles-speak-in-tongues.html

 

[Ronnie T]

Granted, to a point. If we are going to hold to the strictest terms, the prophetic office closed with John the Baptist and the apostolic office closed with the apostles. I would agree here. But I think there is a broad sense in which we can say that there are prophets and apostles today.

Personally, from my studies, I don't believe it even possible for there to be an apostle today.

As far as prophets, there's nothing left for a prophet to tell me today. We obviously have plenty of people in the world who are ready to tell us of things anew. But all of them have proved to be exactly what we expected they would be. In Christ, now we have His word and His Gospel.
.

 

[Ronnie T]

On the subject of the apostles, please read the following words of Jesus.
As you read, listen to Jesus' heart. Listen to His very special love for those Apostles. Jesus is speaking to His father......

"Father......

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

*Jesus' words of prayer concerning those men who had been with Him during His earthly ministry.
Powerful, and emotional.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It's amazing how reading a whole chapter or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing too, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two.
I know we all quote verses because of time restraints. It would be wonderful to have the time to go over a whole chapter of the Bible while witnessing.
I found this article about the apostles interesting:

The spiritual office of apostle is a vital office that demands a Biblical understanding. Some people believe that there are modern apostles, while others dismiss the authority of the ancient apostles. Both of these beliefs constitute critical dangers for us. Those who believe in modern apostles subject themselves to the authority of men, who may be perverting the true gospel, jeopardizing their own souls and the souls of their followers (Galatians 1:6-8). Others fail to heed the writings of the Bible, because of their failure to understand the authority of the true apostles. This may lead them to dismiss the importance of the Bible pattern, because of their failure to appreciate the position of the apostles who recorded it (Luke 10:16). Therefore, we must be careful to understand the nature of the apostles, so that we may properly understand God's will for us and appreciate the authority of God that is behind the writings of the apostles.

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/apostles.html

 

[Artfuldodger]

I just thought of another difference. Jesus spoke to the multitude in PARABLES so they wouldn't understand. He eventually spoke to the disciples so that they could understand. They had an insight that the multitudes didn't that was used for starting the first Church.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13

Jesus hid the meaning of His teachings from the masses.
Mark 4:12 so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.'"

I don't understand the mystery of Jesus and his parables, I was just showing yet another difference between us and the apostles.
There isn't a lot of commentary on Mark 4:12 leading me to believe it is still a mystery.

 

[barryl]

It's amazing how reading a whole chapter or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing too, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two.
I know we all quote verses because of time restraints. I would be wonderful to have the time to go over a whole chapter of the Bible while witnessing.
I found this article about the apostles interesting:

The spiritual office of apostle is a vital office that demands a Biblical understanding. Some people believe that there are modern apostles, while others dismiss the authority of the ancient apostles. Both of these beliefs constitute critical dangers for us. Those who believe in modern apostles subject themselves to the authority of men, who may be perverting the true gospel, jeopardizing their own souls and the souls of their followers (Galatians 1:6-8). Others fail to heed the writings of the Bible, because of their failure to understand the authority of the true apostles. This may lead them to dismiss the importance of the Bible pattern, because of their failure to appreciate the position of the apostles who recorded it (Luke 10:16). Therefore, we must be careful to understand the nature of the apostles, so that we may properly understand God's will for us and appreciate the authority of God that is behind the writings of the apostles.

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/apostles.html

"It's amazing how reading a whole ch. or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing to, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two." 2 Tim. 2:15 Way to go, "Dodger" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[centerpin fan]

After writing this:

"It's amazing how reading a whole ch. or book knowing who the author is, who he was writing to, and how it pertains to me is different than quoting a single verse or two."

... you then quoted a single verse.

Just sayin'.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Another difference was apostles could turn or send someone over to satan.

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

"it was directed by apostolic authority"
" Apostles alone were intrusted with it."
" it is what no man, or set of men, have power to do now, since the ceasing of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, which the apostles were endowed with; who, as they had a power over Satan to dispossess him from the bodies of men, so to deliver up the bodies of men into his hands, as the apostle did this man's."
" The phrase seems to be Jewish, and to express that extraordinary power the apostles had in those days, as well in giving up the bodies to Satan, for a temporal chastisement, as in delivering them from him."

 

[gordon 2]

I suppose I should keep my lips shut... LOL...


But a few things which are mostly my opinions:

1. There are probably prophets today and real ones. Take Jeremiah for example. It is my opinion that Jeremiah was a prophet for simply understanding two things( of course there is mostly likely more to him): (a)How the people of his time regarded God and how theyfollowed His commands and (b)God's way of correcting transgression. Most folk when they think of prophet think of End of the World nutters... which if we care to notice...real prophets never were.

Now, I would suggest ( my opinion) that for saints today this knowledge is easily known or knowable because saints live in relationship with God and His spirit which is in them but also with the help available in the body of Christ or the Church; And the nature of God has not changed regards what the prophets waxed or still wax about.

2.Ok. Next. Ronnie my bros. Your opinions and ideas regards the Apostles are interesting. If I was knowledgeable enough on catholic doctrine to articulate with it some points... I think it would be helpful to all, but alas I am not the man to do this. But let me guess that a catholic with dogma in his/her wallet, would say that what is missing for the recipe concerning the question are there Apostles today or not?... is who has the authority from Jesus according to scriptue to answer this and who has it to the extent the Holy Spirit does not furnish to it--just an opinion. (They would say, what does the church say, along with our opinions--even if we are guided by the Holy Spirit, saved etc.)

He or she would say( I guess) that the Holy Spirit in us alone and our personal relationship with God alone, is not sufficient to bring to the question-- that it could possibly be answered with sufficient authority and all we can hope for then in this case is "opinions" and live with our different opinions...but add to it ''What does the church say?" and then ....

Also...They would say perhaps, that the foundation of the church being of the apostles...but also they were ministers of the Good News... they had to fashion their tools to minister, and that part of the church which still ministers the good news can be apostolic because they put themselves into it......etc...( maybe).

Perhaps. Now in the absence of there being a catholic perspective... y'all can at least phantom one...to serve the purpose of truth and to offer clarity --or more opinions....

3. Also, this is a bit off topic, but it so happen I was reading on Plato's notions on Idea just before reading the words attributed to Jesus (Farewell Address) in the scripture quoted in this tread. I find Jesus' words on the relationship between God, saints and the world very interesting in light of what is attributed to Plato regard the subject of Idea and its relationship to man.

Now I know I should have kept my lips shut...or my fingers from typing this... but... I like you guys alot... and it can't be comfortable to be stuck in the mud of opinion regards our Lord and our shared life in Him. If anything... this made you laugh... and your minds took a brake.

And this last thing:


Ephesians 4
11 Some he has appointed to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, or pastors, or teachers. 12 They are to order the lives of the faithful, minister to their needs, build up the frame of Christ’s body, 13 until we all realize our common unity through faith in the Son of God, and fuller knowledge of him

So we shall reach perfect manhood, that maturity which is proportioned to the completed growth of Christ;[4] 14 we are no longer to be children, no longer to be like storm-tossed sailors, driven before the wind of each new doctrine that human subtlety, human skill in fabricating lies, may propound. 15 We are to follow the truth, in a spirit of charity, and so grow up, in everything, into a due proportion with Christ, who is our head.[5] 16 On him all the body depends; it is organized and unified by each contact with the source which supplies it; and thus, each limb receiving the active power it needs, it achieves its natural growth, building itself up through charity.