Purgatory?

[Double Barrel BB]

Just curious who all here believes and why do you believe in a thing such as Purgatory?

I found this today while reading some Spurgeon and thought this topic might spark a good conversation:

PURGATORY

If I were a Roman Catholic, I should turn a heretic, in sheer desperation, because I would rather go to heaven than go to purgatory. - MTP Vol 18 pg. 57.

When the thief died on the cross, he had but just believed, and had never done a single good work. But where did he go? He ought to have gone to purgatory by rights if ever anybody did. But instead of that the Saviour said to him, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Why? Because the ground of the man's admission into Paradise was perfect. - MTP Vol 12 pg. 562.

How can God's people go to purgatory? For if they go there at all, they go there for sins which God does not remember, and so he cannot give a reason for sending them there. Does God forgive and forget and yet punish? When you die you shall either go to heaven or to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie, and that immediately. Your state in either case will be fixed eternally without the possibility of change. This doctrine is the cornerstone of PROTESTANTISM. - MTP Vol 28 pg. 585.

What can there be about pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie fire to change a man's heart? Surely the more the lost will suffer, the more they will hate God. When God sent plagues on the earth, men blasphemed his name (Revelation 16:8-9). Men do so now. Are they likely to turn at his rebuke then? Satan has been punished for these six thousand years - do you see any signs of repentance about him? Besides, if the gospel of Christ cannot save you, what can? If the wooings of Christ's wounds cannot make you love Christ, do you think the flames of pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie will? - MTP Vol 12 pg. 177.

I heard of one, who said to the preacher, after he had been preaching the doctrine of everlasting punishment, "Sir, I believe that I shall go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie for a season, and afterward get round to heaven." "Man," said the preacher, "even if what you say be true, when there is a straightforward road to heaven, what a fool you must be to want to go round by way of pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie!" - MTP Vol 45 pg. 551

 

[Hawkeye]

I would need a chapter and verse in the bible saying there is a purgatory ,then I would believe.
Am Afraid it is heaven or pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.

 

[FESTUSHAGGIN]

my bible says nothing about it. if your saved you will go to heaven. if not you will go to he!! its just that simple. nothing complicated about it.

 

[StriperAddict]

I know many bible believing Cathloics who have rejected the purgatory doctrine, simply on the basis of what has been said here... it's not in the bible. What I find fault with is that none of the Catloic counsels have done the same through the years. Along with 'pennance' and other non-biblical teachings, I think these things are man-made dogmas to keep the congregant in a form of guilt, which will increase their 'religious' and 'church' activity, but will not lead a sinner to the truth of salvation found only in Christ.

 

[PJason]

I did not write this but it's was the best way I could find to explain it.



Purgatory


The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the ****ed" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.


Two Judgments


When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).


Money, Money, Money


One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.


A Catholic "Invention"?


Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)


Why No Protests?


Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.


"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.


Why Go To Purgatory?


Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.


No Contradiction


The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).


Nothing Unclean


Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
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permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

 

[toddboucher]

I know many bible believing Cathloics who have rejected the purgatory doctrine, simply on the basis of what has been said here... it's not in the bible. What I find fault with is that none of the Catloic counsels have done the same through the years. Along with 'pennance' and other non-biblical teachings, I think these things are man-made dogmas to keep the congregant in a form of guilt, which will increase their 'religious' and 'church' activity, but will not lead a sinner to the truth of salvation found only in Christ.

If this is so, They should leave- I don't understand why anyone could sit every Sunday under teaching you know is false. But what would I know Im one of those once saved always saved folks.
I don't mean any harm to something I don't understand, maybe someone can explain.

 

[StriperAddict]

If this is so, They should leave- I don't understand why anyone could sit every Sunday under teaching you know is false. But what would I know Im one of those once saved always saved folks.
I don't mean any harm to something I don't understand, maybe someone can explain.

I didn't say it in my post, but there's gotta be some Cathloic churches who no longer teach this doctrine. I agree with your point about coming out of any church who's doctrine does not resemble the teaching of Christ, nor the scriptures as the final authority on conduct and doctrine. I note that Anagama has posted some text from the aprochrapha >sp?<, that says enough for me about one defending this un-biblical doctrine.

I am not judging Cathloics by my stand... only doctrine(s) that anyone under the blood of Christ can conclude have no basis of truth about salvation and sanctification.

To any christian... I offer this word of encouragement from the bible:

1 John 3:1-3 (New King James Version)

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Note that, when we see Him (either by our death OR His "revealing", which is His coming to earth again) the bible says "we shall be like Him".

The transformation is INSTANT! There is no "wait" in some "purgatory" for any more "purging" of sins. And the verses say that our santification (process by which we NOW become more Christ-like) goes on because we have "this hope in Him" (vs 3), and are "purifying ourselves" by this hope of a ressurrected Lord coming for us. Praise God! Every sin debt, and every effect of our sin debt is taken away because of the cross of Christ!

 

[Hawkeye]

What They are saying in that article then, is that the blood of Jesus is not sufficient to cleanse you from sin and to make you righteous, so you need to be purified by purgatory.
We believe that the works of Christ on the cross is sufficient to purify you from all sins.

The doctrine of the purgatory is totally contrary to the gospel of salvation By grace and through faith.

 

[PJason]

I didn't say it in my post, but there's gotta be some Catholic churches who no longer teach this doctrine.

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Unlike many Protestant churches, where you can just pick up a leave to find a preacher who you agree with, the Catholic Church is one church, one voice.

I note that Anagama has posted some text from the apocrypha >sp?<, that says enough for me about one defending this un-biblical doctrine.

It was the Protestants choice to remove the Deuterocanonical books not the Catholics. Even Luther had them in his translation and they can be found in the AV1611.

 

[StriperAddict]

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church. Unlike many Protestant churches, where you can just pick up a leave to find a preacher who you agree with, the Catholic Church is one church, one voice.

No big deal to me. The end times church will be universal (global) also. That doesn't mean it will be a "church" according to scripture. The true "church" (body of Christ) are those who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit (born again, see John 3:3) and have no need for thier works of the flesh to satisfy the demands of holiness, which our Lord Jesus has done by His substitutional work at calvary.

FYI: More warnings about the global church are found in the book of Daniel & Revelation. I don't have time...

It was the Protestants choice to remove the Deuterocanonical books not the Catholics. Even Luther had them in his translation and they can be found in the AV1611.

And they did so b/c of the un-scriptual doctrines professed there.

Now, if you find us historical documents where Luther believed in purgatory, it still won't bend my faith to believe this hideous doctrine.

 

[PJason]

And they did so b/c of the un-scriptual doctrines professed there.

What is un-scriptual about the Deuterocanonical books?

 

[Tn_Extreme]

Purgatory....

Isnt Biblical

therefore....

...it isnt a true.

It is a false teahcing taught by false teachers.

 

[Tn_Extreme]

It was the Protestants choice to remove the Deuterocanonical books not the Catholics. Even Luther had them in his translation and they can be found in the AV1611.

Many of the early AV1611;s had those bookes sandwiched inbetween the oOT and NT. Theyr were removed becasue of the flawed translatons and the fact that the texts had been altered several times over the course of several centuries.

 

[PJason]

Many of the early AV1611;s had those bookes sandwiched inbetween the oOT and NT. Theyr were removed becasue of the flawed translatons and the fact that the texts had been altered several times over the course of several centuries.

Most weren't removed until after 1800 it took two hundred years to figure it out.

 

[PJason]

Purgatory....

Isnt Biblical

therefore....

...it isnt a true.

It is a false teahcing taught by false teachers.

Can you argue against what I posted above? Did you even bother to read it?

 

[PJason]

Ok, guys, it's time to step back away from the computer and have a little bit of humor injected for the good of the order.

i've always thought that the old-line Episcopalians were far more catholic than the Catholics. Is this still true or have the times changed??

Episcopalians Don't you mean Catholic light "Sleep late, Less kneeling"

 

[Tn_Extreme]

Most weren't removed until after 1800 it took two hundred years to figure it out.

NOT TRUE AT ALL.

The first KJV Bibles included them , as I stated above, in between the OT and NT to be sused for timelining and dating some of the other texts.

The aithors of the KJV knew they were severey flawed and sinc ethey were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit they did not include them as part fo the actual Bible.
Read the notes of some of the translators. it is very clear what they thought of the texts they did not put in the actual Bible.

 

[Tn_Extreme]

Can you argue against what I posted above? Did you even bother to read it?

Yes, i read it.... it s the same old line...You say urgatory is a place to go to be cleansed because nothng unclean will enter Heaven.

You hyave it all wrong. The Blood of Christ cleanses us and makes us clean and able to enter Heaven. If you have been saved by the blood of Christ God sees you as a clean and righteous heir to his Kingdom.

I am already a saint....I am as saved now as I will ever be. In the eyes of God I am clean because I have been bathed in the blood of his son at Calvary and nothing else is needed for me to enter heaven.
Thenible says the wy a tree falleth there shall it lie. There is no making yourself right for heaven after you die. Once you eyes close for that final time you either awaken in Heaven of hades.

 

[brian chambers]

saint

Yes, i read it.... it s the same old line...You say urgatory is a place to go to be cleansed because nothng unclean will enter Heaven.

You hyave it all wrong. The Blood of Christ cleanses us and makes us clean and able to enter Heaven. If you have been saved by the blood of Christ God sees you as a clean and righteous heir to his Kingdom.

I am already a saint....I am as saved now as I will ever be. In the eyes of God I am clean because I have been bathed in the blood of his son at Calvary and nothing else is needed for me to enter heaven.
Thenible says the wy a tree falleth there shall it lie. There is no making yourself right for heaven after you die. Once you eyes close for that final time you either awaken in Heaven of hades.

This says it all a self proclaimed saint!

 

[SBG]

Just curious who all here believes and why do you believe in a thing such as Purgatory?

I can find no scriptural basis for it.