Purgatory?

[toddboucher]

couple last questions: Ive heard people talk about purgatory and honestly I don't know, is it a place of punishment or a place of teaching to learn the ways of God?-I heard both

I quess I should make my fingers shut up untill I understand.

The point Iam still having a hard time understanding is, the doctrine of working to become righteous in this world or the next. If that could be done why did Christ have to come and die? I believe 2 Corinthians 5:21 which tell even simple me, after I recieve him Im the righteousness of God in Christ. Don't we have have fellowship with the Father today only because were righeous in his sight.

 

[Double Barrel BB]

This says it all a self proclaimed saint!

If you are "Truely Saved" then you are a Saint.

You don't have to be named by a church or voted for to be a saint. The only being that has control over wether you are a saint or not it is God.

DB BB

 

[StriperAddict]

couple last questions: Ive heard people talk about purgatory and honestly I don't know, is it a place of punishment or a place of teaching to learn the ways of God?-I heard both

I quess I should make my fingers shut up untill I understand.

The point Iam still having a hard time understanding is, the doctrine of working to become righteous in this world or the next. If that could be done why did Christ have to come and die? I believe 2 Corinthians 5:21 which tell even simple me, after I recieve him Im the righteousness of God in Christ. Don't we have have fellowship with the Father today only because were righeous in his sight.

Jesus said... "This is the work of God... to believe in Him whom He has sent",

also...

Eph2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Hawkeye]

Are the Catholics a church or a cult ?

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/isitcult.htm

 

[brian chambers]

what have you done.

 

[Tn_Extreme]

This says it all a self proclaimed saint!

Brian...The Bible says those who are saved and washed in the blood of Christ IS a "Saint".

Because of my faith in Christ and the fact that I submitted my will to Christ, rofessed my self a condemned Sinner headed to He11 and asking for Christ to save my soul, the instant he saved my I was a Saint.

God proclaimed ,,not me. It would do alot of people on this forum some good to spend the time they spend on here belittling saved folks to actuaally read a Bible and learn what it says.

 

[StriperAddict]

what have you done.

Who?

What?

Wheree???

(Vinny Barbarino on "Welcome back Kotter", just to toss in some humor )

 

[Double Barrel BB]

Talking to me???

what have you done.

If you were talking to me, which I am not totally sure you are.

I have done nothing! God saved me by His Grace.

Salvation is not based on works. Ephesians 2:8-9
StriperAddict has already posted the verses.

If Salvation was based on works, then NO ONE would get into Heaven.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

People think they can do good deeds, and get by because they are what the WORLD calls a "Good Person". Well no matter how many so called Good Deeds that person does, unless they are Truely Saved, they are going to he11.

Plain and simple.

DB BB

 

[PJason]

Rev 14:13
I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," said the Spirit, "let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them."

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

I agree not by works alone, but by faith and works

 

[Double Barrel BB]

Rev 14:13
I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," said the Spirit, "let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them."

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

I agree not by works alone, but by faith and works

Being a Saved person, the Holy Spirit will convict you of doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. You will be convicted to work, to spread the Gospel. To witness to others, to be an example to others on your relationship with Christ.

Let's look at James 2:24 in context:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Abraham and Rahab, had to believe before they did any works. They worked because they had faith.

Let's Look at Rev 14:13 in context:
Revelation 14
14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Now here is part of Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Rev 14:13:

"What it principally intended, and that is, to show the blessedness of all the faithful saints and servants of God, both in death and after death: Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth, etc. Here observe, the description of those that are and shall be blessed-such as die in the Lord, either die in the cause of Christ, or rather die in a state of vital union with Christ, such as are found in Christ when death comes. The demonstration of this blessedness: They rest from their labours, and their works do follow them. They are blessed in their rest; they rest from all sin, temptation, sorrow, and persecution. There the wicked cease from troubling, there the weary are at rest. They are blessed in their recompence: Their works follow them; they do not go before them as their title, or price of purchase, but follow them as their evidence of having lived and died in the Lord; and the memory of them will be pleasant, and the reward glorious, far above the merit of all their services and sufferings. They are happy in the time of their dying, when they have lived to see the cause of God reviving, the peace of the church returning, and the wrath of God falling upon their idolatrous cruel enemies. Such times are good times to die in; they have Simeon’s desire: Now, Lord, let thou thy servant depart in peace, for mine eyes have seen thy salvation. And all this is ratified and confirmed by the testimony of the Spirit witnessing with their spirits and with the written word."

Click here for the full Commentary

I tend to agree with MH.

DB BB

 

[toddboucher]

I think this is my last point on works vs grace

After the fall, they knew they were naked so they sewed fig leaves together. This was mans works to cover sin.
But when God showed up in verse 8-10 they knew they were naked so they hid. I don't care what good works you do when God shows up you'll know your naked or clothed. Because in verse 21 we see God made a true covering he made them coats with skins. This means he killed, shed blood to make a covering. Paul said the wages of sin is death something must die.
shortly after I got saved I quit drinking not because some church authority told me I had to. I quit because time in prayer with God was more important, I found after 1 beer my desire for god went down so I left it for something better. Thats how grace works, thats what James was talking about in faith without works is dead. Remember James said show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith with works. Man can not see our faith, only God can. back to my old ways of heavy drinking to me and God its not a good work its faith. But to those who used to know me its works. God looks on the inside of our faith only towards him but man looks at the outside our fruit of a faithfilled life.

No expert just 1 man who was changed from sinner to SAINT. but you don't have to call me Saint Todd.

 

[reylamb]

Anagama, way to take those Scripture completely out of context to fit your position.

 

[PJason]

How am I taking them out of context. I said you must have both. The whole passage from James says just that. Read it again and show me where I am wrong.

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
not by faith only.

How many times in one passage does it have to said? One brings about the other

 

[reylamb]

It is completely out of context because you are attempting to link works to salvation. Works is an outward manifestation of an inward change, as is the context of the Scripture. Faith without works does not prevent one from getting into heaven.

One thing (faith) does and should bring about the other (works), however, works are not needed to get into heaven, I don't acre how you attempt to change the context of these verses.


Vs 22 which you highlighted in red was a causation effect in the OT, prior to the Age of Grace. I could go on with the rest of the passage, but it is pointless.

Nowhere in this Scriputre section does James attach works to salvation.

 

[PJason]

Try 2:26

 

[reylamb]

Faith without works is the modern day equivalent of owning a car without gas. You own the car, but without gas it is pointless.

Once again, works is not tied to salvation. See Eph 2:8-9 for context.

Salvation is a gift, one does not have to do anything to get a gift other than accept it. If I were to walk up to you today and say, I am giving this bow as a gift to you, you have 2 choices, accept that gift or reject that gift. If I say I am giving you this bow as a gift, but in order to get this bow you have to do x, y and z it is no longer a gift, but a wage for completing the requirements I put on receiving that "gift." Once again, if you choose to accept that gift of a bow, then just hang it up somewhere and never use it, it is pointless for you to have that bow. It does not change the fact that you possess the bow, but having a bow and never using it means nothing.

The justification of our faith that Paul descibes is justification to God. This section in James is justification of our salvation before man, as is said when James states Show Me.............and not Show God. God knows the heart, man know the appearance.

James is warning against a false claim of salvation, warning early Christians that faith without works may not be faith at all. True salvation should bring about an outward change which is shown through works as clearly stated by James in this section, if there is no change was there faith?

 

[PJason]

I think I have found where we differ you believe that grace...

Eph 2:8-9

8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9
it is not from works, so no one may boast.


and salvation are one in the same.

 

[reylamb]

Grace is available to every man, some will reject that grace, but it is still available to everyone. Salvation is for everyone that accepts the giftof grace through faith, not of works. God's grace is our salvation, and is for everyone.

James 2 is still a reference to an outward manifestation of the inward change so that men might see our salvation.

I should also clarify a couple of things.

Salvation is a result of God's grace. Grace is giving someone something they do not deserve. Salvation is also God's mercy, not giving someone something they deserve. All men are worthless, vile sinners. We have 2 choices, accept the God's grace in the form of salvation, or reject that gift. We can do nothing to garner favor in God's eyes, we are all worthless, and all of our works are a filthy rags. It matters not how many good works we do, that changes nothing, there is only one way to salvation, and there is no amount of works that changes that. Salvation is a result of the grace of God, through faith and accepting His free gift. If you have to work for something to receive it, that is no longer a gift but a payment.

Works are a result of salvation, not a necessary part of receiving salvation. If works were required, what works did the thief on the cross do to achieve his salvation?

How does the entire belief in works being tied to salvation justify itself with all of the Scriptures, not just James.

Titus 3:5.....not by works of righteousness........
Romans 5:9....justified by His blood......
Romans 3:11-12.....there is none righteous, no not one......
Romans 4:4....Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace........

James 2 has been widly taken out of context to prove works are a requirement for salvation, however, James is saying that works are a result of salvation and an outward manifestation of our salvation before man.


For further reading........http://answers.org/theology/salvation.html

 

[Hawkeye]

Salvation is a free gift from God, it takes a none doubtfull believe thatChrist atoned all of our sins, that nothing we do as humans can forgive your sins, only the shed blood of Yeshua is necessary.

But it takes faith in His salvation and a life of following in his holiness.

Works comes after we have accepted the gift; in the old establishment works were the key to salvation, because the Torah and its holiness made you a child of God.
Today Yeshua is the Living Torah
All children of God must do what the Father does;

angels do what the Father does and they do his will, a believer who does not do the works of the Father has a dead faith.

The New gospel of faith and no works is a dead faith.

"By their fruits ye shall know them" Yeshua

"show me your faith by your works and I will show you my works by my faith" James

"For we are created in his image to do good works which he has prepared before hand, that you may dwell in them" Paul

Psa 28:5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

Psa 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein

Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect [that which] concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, [endureth] for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Do you think you are excempt from doing the works of God ?

"In that Day many will come and say Lord in your Name We casted out demons and healed the sick, and I will reply, step away from me I never Knew you", (Jesus)
Works without faith is dead, faith without works is dead.

 

[Tn_Extreme]

Salvation will produce good works but the works wont save you or do anything to help your position with God.